Why Does It Scare Me?

[Sentama Lin]

It's all the way in California; it has nothing to do with Minnesota. However, the results of the oral arguments of Proposition 8 absolutely frighten me. Why does it frighten me so much? Let's screw the semantics and protocol of law for a second and just focus on the issue. When all the ickiness that involves revision versus amendment is removed, when all the terrible connotations of the word marriage is ignored for a mere second, the only thing that I get very scared about is this: because Proposition 8 existed, the rights and freedoms of any minority group can now be changed by the majority vote, and many people will use yesterday's oral arguments to justify future changes of minority rights by the majority.  

[The Dinosaur Next Door]

That's what it's coming to, unfortunately. Americans would rather sign away their rights than accept the fact that others are just as entitled those rights. Cutting off the nose to spite the face, I guess.  

[Sentama Lin]

Alack, however... There's a very disgusting ring of truth: because "goodness" and "righteousness" is relative, the easiest goodness and righteousness to define is the goodness and righteousness of the majority. Couple that with the fact that the majority think that their goodness and righteousness is the absolute goodness and righteousness...

I just don't know what to say to this. In a sense I can see both ways of thought on this issue, but I still think it's absolutely bullsh*t.  

[xDarkPisces]

But then Americans have always been more then willing to sacrifice a little more of their liberty to maintain the illusion of safety, security, and normality.  

[lazycommie]

Sentama Lin

It's all the way in California; it has nothing to do with Minnesota. However, the results of the oral arguments of Proposition 8 absolutely frighten me. Why does it frighten me so much? Let's screw the semantics and protocol of law for a second and just focus on the issue. When all the ickiness that involves revision versus amendment is removed, when all the terrible connotations of the word marriage is ignored for a mere second, the only thing that I get very scared about is this: because Proposition 8 existed, the rights and freedoms of any minority group can now be changed by the majority vote, and many people will use yesterday's oral arguments to justify future changes of minority rights by the majority.

My question. Why should the minority be treated any different than the majority?

My commentary. Why is it people who argue for "the rights of the minority" only ever seem to give a damn about "acceptable minorities"? Why aren't the same folks arguing for gay marriage also arguing for the rights of gun owners and the folks who use soft drugs? Minorities bitching about things don't seem to accomplish much.


My commentary 2. The government should not have any say in marriage. That means no "marriage license" to anyone, with marriage not being recorded by or noted by government at all.  

[Sentama Lin]

lazycommie

My question. Why should the minority be treated any different than the majority?

They shouldn't. However, because of the nature of being the minority (not the majority of the population) should their rights be decided by the majority without the minority's opinion?

lazycommie

My commentary. Why is it people who argue for "the rights of the minority" only ever seem to give a damn about "acceptable minorities"? Why aren't the same folks arguing for gay marriage also arguing for the rights of gun owners and the folks who use soft drugs? Minorities bitching about things don't seem to accomplish much.

Same situation as above. The "problem" I see with a purely majoritarian vote is it totally squashes any right of say of any group that is not in the majority. It makes things simpler. However, is it right?

lazycommie

My commentary 2. The government should not have any say in marriage. That means no "marriage license" to anyone, with marriage not being recorded by or noted by government at all.

Agreed.  

[lazycommie]

Which is why the US was never designed to be a democracy(and the founders actually spoke against democracy). We were originally supposed to be a very limited and de-federalized republic. Something we've strayed from.

Also, we, as "minority groups" should unite to some extent. The problem, of course, is that an awful lot of the minorities are at odds with eachother.  

[The Dinosaur Next Door]

That is the spectacular failure of the Electoral College. Instead of accurately representing all voters by casting votes in ratio to the total in both columns across the country, they only represent the majority in each state.
If they implemented the former representation, the minority would actually have a fighting chance in any issue (I believe.)  

[lazycommie]

XxStephasaurusxXxRexxX

That is the spectacular failure of the Electoral College. Instead of accurately representing all voters by casting votes in ratio to the total in both columns across the country, they only represent the majority in each state.
If they implemented the former representation, the minority would actually have a fighting chance in any issue (I believe.)

Pretty much.

The problem stems from the fact that we've let government get away with growing much larger than it was intended to be and given it way too much power. They want more, so they use such loads of BS like the electoral college to put someone in power who will cater to that.  

[Sentama Lin]

The Electoral College was not used with Proposition 8, however; this was a state-wide majoritarian vote not affected with representative votes at all. That said, I do feel that the electoral college that's used with nationwide votings (particularly with the executive branch of government) needs reworking. However, what would make more sense than the electoral college is something that I can't make up.

Unification of minority groups work very well to foster saying power and persuasive power to the majority. However, groups would need to be working on very similar interests otherwise it won't work. A group that says "We want gay rights and we want guns" sounds quite absurd.  

[lazycommie]

Sentama Lin

The Electoral College was not used with Proposition 8, however; this was a state-wide majoritarian vote not affected with representative votes at all. That said, I do feel that the electoral college that's used with nationwide votings (particularly with the executive branch of government) needs reworking. However, what would make more sense than the electoral college is something that I can't make up.

Unification of minority groups work very well to foster saying power and persuasive power to the majority. However, groups would need to be working on very similar interests otherwise it won't work. A group that says "We want gay rights and we want guns" sounds quite absurd.

There actually is a group like that.  

[The Dinosaur Next Door]

lazycommie

XxStephasaurusxXxRexxX

That is the spectacular failure of the Electoral College. Instead of accurately representing all voters by casting votes in ratio to the total in both columns across the country, they only represent the majority in each state.
If they implemented the former representation, the minority would actually have a fighting chance in any issue (I believe.)

Pretty much.

The problem stems from the fact that we've let government get away with growing much larger than it was intended to be and given it way too much power. They want more, so they use such loads of BS like the electoral college to put someone in power who will cater to that.

Well, they're definitely too far-reaching... You would think with all the debt, environmental and population issues, and the various other ******** going on, that the federal government would have too much to worry about to stop and remind the minorities that they are, in fact, minorities (and are therefore, by American standards, secondary citizens.)

Like many of our current programs, I think the Electoral College was a great idea when it was thought up. unfortunately, the world has changed and America has more people with mor diverse backgrounds... the old way of thinking is obsolete - nigh irrelevant to today's society. I think the federal government needs to be gutted and revamped in a serious way.

Re: Prop 8: I once heard a quote on West Wing (that I agree with) where one of Bartlett's cabinet commented to a Republican, "Congratulations on once again managing to make the federal government small enough to fit into the people's bedrooms." I have to say, I agree here.

@ Sentama: I brought that up due to its relevancy in the representation of America's citiznes overall. I figured it was along similar lines to the questions posed regarding the minority's treatment as lesser rather than smaller by the majority. If you consider it off-topic, I'll take it down and apologize. biggrin  

[lazycommie]

XxStephasaurusxXxRexxX

lazycommie

XxStephasaurusxXxRexxX

That is the spectacular failure of the Electoral College. Instead of accurately representing all voters by casting votes in ratio to the total in both columns across the country, they only represent the majority in each state.
If they implemented the former representation, the minority would actually have a fighting chance in any issue (I believe.)

Pretty much.

The problem stems from the fact that we've let government get away with growing much larger than it was intended to be and given it way too much power. They want more, so they use such loads of BS like the electoral college to put someone in power who will cater to that.

Well, they're definitely too far-reaching... You would think with all the debt, environmental and population issues, and the various other ******** going on, that the federal government would have too much to worry about to stop and remind the minorities that they are, in fact, minorities (and are therefore, by American standards, secondary citizens.)

Like many of our current programs, I think the Electoral College was a great idea when it was thought up. unfortunately, the world has changed and America has more people with mor diverse backgrounds... the old way of thinking is obsolete - nigh irrelevant to today's society. I think the federal government needs to be gutted and revamped in a serious way.

Re: Prop 8: I once heard a quote on West Wing (that I agree with) where one of Bartlett's cabinet commented to a Republican, "Congratulations on once again managing to make the federal government small enough to fit into the people's bedrooms." I have to say, I agree here.

@ Sentama: I brought that up due to its relevancy in the representation of America's citiznes overall. I figured it was along similar lines to the questions posed regarding the minority's treatment as lesser rather than smaller by the majority. If you consider it off-topic, I'll take it down and apologize. biggrin

The fact of the matter is that government does not, and never does, care at all about the people or issues regarding the people. They only care about power. That's the problem, people always assume government is good, when it's not. It's simply a necessary evil.

What you're actually talking about is the real "old way", not the new stuff pushed by various worthless people ever since FDR. What we need is to gut the government at all levels and take it down to the bare minimum and nothing more, and then make sure it stays there.  

[Sentama Lin]

I feel like I'm surrounded by Libertarians. XD Nothing wrong with that -- my views of how government should act is just different (actually, it's more similar than I probably think). However, I think we can all agree that the current state of government -- whether local (in this case Prop 8 in California) or national -- is just not working for the people (majority or minorities alike).  

[lazycommie]

Sentama Lin

I feel like I'm surrounded by Libertarians. XD Nothing wrong with that -- my views of how government should act is just different (actually, it's more similar than I probably think). However, I think we can all agree that the current state of government -- whether local (in this case Prop 8 in California) or national -- is just not working for the people (majority or minorities alike).

Agreed 100%

I consider myself a "practical anarchist". I believe government is an evil, but am practical enough to realize that "no government" doesn't work due to human nature. As such, I lean towards the "minimal evil", which is the least amount of government possible.