About abortion debates.

[God-Raped-Me]

*nods*

It's like when people ask me if I would abort a retarded/disabled child. ******** yes I would! I don't have the patience to care for a child like that. I don't have the finances to care for a child like that, I couldn't handle all changes that would happen to my family because of a child like that. And with believing that a child should not go through life without their biological mother or father then they shouldn't be born. People scold me and call me a horrible person for that. Really? I mean really? If they could provide a loving, working family for that child then fine have the child that child will have a life worth living to me. But I can't provide that type of life for a child like that, I don't think that makes me cold or anything, in fact I'd like to think that makes me a good parent.

I know it's hard to consider an abortion let alone go through with it. It's not usually a choice that people make on a whim. Well maybe some people, but most people have to really think about it and weigh out their options.

*Brain is farting and having horrible dizzy spells. If this isn't making sense now I'm sorry.*

@Arc: Ya women can do really scary things when they don't want a child.  

[Shram]

It makes perfect sense but you've scared me from responding now
I choose therefore to say
GRM you are a wonderful person =D  

[Xikrai the Risen]

I really can't get around you not knowing the difference between getting raped and not wanting to get pregnant and using contraceptives. If you're using contraceptives you should also know there is still a chance of you getting pregnant. No contraceptive is a 0 full proof as you already know. So, when you get pregnant you didn't want it, but should know that it was always a possibility. Both completely different cases and I can't see them next to each other ever.

But anyways...when it comes to abortions I'll have to say ******** it. I would never tell anyone I got pregnant to get an abortion. Anyone else, do what ever you want. I don't need to know about it, and I don't care what you do.  

[Sanzoskitsune]

@Arc, I think that's an odd situation. When it gets down to the father wanting the child but not the mother its tricky because yes the father could raise the child on his own but would the mother be willing to go through the entire pregnancy? That's taxing on her too after all

@GRM you're making sense and I mean while some people may consider what you said about the disabled child horrible in the end at least you know your limitations. I think its a lot worse to let a disabled child be born and then give up on the child because you figured out AFTER that you really couldn't take care of him/her. As for the second part, too many people seem to think that abortions are chosen on a whim when in all reality, that is rarely the case.  

[God-Raped-Me]

Xikrai the Risen

I really can't get around you not knowing the difference between getting raped and not wanting to get pregnant and using contraceptives. If you're using contraceptives you should also know there is still a chance of you getting pregnant. No contraceptive is a 0 full proof as you already know. So, when you get pregnant you didn't want it, but should know that it was always a possibility. Both completely different cases and I can't see them next to each other ever.

But anyways...when it comes to abortions I'll have to say ******** it. I would never tell anyone I got pregnant to get an abortion. Anyone else, do what ever you want. I don't need to know about it, and I don't care what you do.

I understand the difference, my point is both still resulted in unwanted pregnancies. So how come the couple/mother should have to go through something that perhaps she can't afford, or simply can't do even though she took precautions? That's like if someone got into a car accident because someone hit them, and someone else got into an accident because their brakes failed. Neither wanted the accident but it still happened.  

[Arcanas]

yeah, it was weird...but she ended up raising the kid...it's been 4 years now.  

[Nici la Fey]

OK, so, I'm pro-life. And I understand where you guys are coming from, it's just that a baby shouldn't have to die. But that's just me, I mean I feel bad killing bugs. But if someone can't afford to have a baby, they shouldn't risk it by having sex, that's the best protection, and that's just my opinion because I was raised with the strong belief that you shouldn't have sex before marriage.

Rape is a diificult issue, it was forced upon, the partner had no consent. While sex with protection shows that both partners consented and they were against having a baby, but they should know that nothing is 100% garunteed (spelling?). So I'm on the fence about the rape issue, but all else the people should know the odds before they get involved.

But that's just my opinion.  

[Taeryyn]

Nici la Fey

OK, so, I'm pro-life. And I understand where you guys are coming from, it's just that a baby shouldn't have to die. But that's just me, I mean I feel bad killing bugs. But if someone can't afford to have a baby, they shouldn't risk it by having sex, that's the best protection, and that's just my opinion because I was raised with the strong belief that you shouldn't have sex before marriage.

Rape is a diificult issue, it was forced upon, the partner had no consent. While sex with protection shows that both partners consented and they were against having a baby, but they should know that nothing is 100% garunteed (spelling?). So I'm on the fence about the rape issue, but all else the people should know the odds before they get involved.

But that's just my opinion.

What if they're married, and they're having sex, they're using protection, but still do not want a child? Do you believe that even married couples should be abstinent unless they're trying for a child?  

[Nici la Fey]

Hmmmm, good question Ciel. They don't have to be abstinate, just careful, but if they have the means and money to care for an unplanned child they shouldn't abort it. And if they can't or REALLY just don't want it, somewhere in their family there's bound to be someone with an open heart to care for the child. That way the child is still close to the family and they can ensure the child is taken care of. Or at least in the hands of a trusted person.  

[Alarias]

I think a great deal of the reason why some pro-lifers won't acknowledge logical arguments in favor of pro-choice is due to religion/morals.

If you think of it as murder of a baby and believe it's a sin against your creator, then chances are that very little will persuade you to budge an inch on the issue.
I think they see it as a black and white situation with no gray areas, and when you're dealing with someone like that, logic really isn't going to get you very far because it's a matter of beliefs and principles and changing those isn't usually an easy thing to do.
It'd be the same as trying to get them to accept that rape is sometimes acceptable. I use rape as a comparison because it is mostly, and rightly, viewed as a horrible transgression and is never acceptable under any circumstances. The difference of course is that there are logical reasons to allow someone to terminate a pregnancy and good can come of that, whereas rape is purely a violation of someone. But, if someone feels as strongly about abortion as they do about rape being wrong, regardless of their reasons, you're most likely not going to have much success changing that.

Ethics and morals aren't easily negotiated.
I'm not saying it's right but, that's my take on why some people won't accept any points brought up in favor of abortion.

My personal opinion: I don't think any woman should be forced to have a child she does not want. I'm sure that that would do damage not only to her, but to the child before it's born. Yes adoption is an option but, going through a pregnancy against your will ...I view that as a sort of rape...a violation. Nobody has any right to force that on a woman and if you believe it's wrong and a sin, fine. Then you probably believe that woman will face her judgment when her time comes.
Leave it at that and let people decide for themselves on this issue.  

[God-The-RapistV2.0]

Nici la Fey

Hmmmm, good question Ciel. They don't have to be abstinate, just careful, but if they have the means and money to care for an unplanned child they shouldn't abort it. And if they can't or REALLY just don't want it, somewhere in their family there's bound to be someone with an open heart to care for the child. That way the child is still close to the family and they can ensure the child is taken care of. Or at least in the hands of a trusted person.

What most people don't ever realize, especially pro-lifers, is that every action has a consequence.

Somehow I feel dirty and shallow doing this but I'm going to compare the similarities from Rape and Murder to Abortion and Unwanted Birth.

I don't like doing this because it seems like a low tactic but I'm going to anyway because its a good illustration of cause and effect.

Rape, as a whole, is decidedly (amongst most people) worse than Murder for the simple reason is that it is something that the victim has to live with for the rest of their lives. They go through stressful emotions and, in a lot of cases if not all, severe psychological damage. Where as with murder the person is just dead. (Not withstanding the presumable presence of an afterlife.)

Unwanted birth in this scenario can then be seen as "rape" as the child can develop severe psychological issues (especially if they are sent to live with family) just from the fact that they were unwanted. Abortion is then synonymous with murder where as the person never has to suffer. (Again notwithstanding the presence of an afterlife or cognitive reasoning within the womb.)

I myself was one such unwanted pregnancies, I was then given to a family member, and I'm sure my psychologists could tell you I have severe coping problems and abandonment issues. Even though I saw my parents growing up and they never really "abandoned" me.

I am not saying I am ungrateful for life and I am not saying that abortion IS murder. I am merely trying to convey the idea that abortion is a tool that is sometimes better for all people involved and the people that may become involved later in that childs life.  

[^^Psycha^^]

My university is AGAINST ABORTION, maybe because its catholic  

[Thaliat Everwood]

In the end, it doesn't matter what pro-lifers say, or if there is a law regarding the matter...if a woman really doesn't want to be pregnant, she WILL find a way to abort the fetus inside her. Her body, her choice. I won't say the choice is always made for good reasons either way, but it is ultimately the woman's choice, regardless of what society's opinion is on the matter.

Men should have a say in the discussion if it is their sperm contributing to the cause, but realize the woman is the one with the FINAL say because it is HER body that will suffer the 9 months of torment associated with pregnancy. If she's willing to endure it, she might choose to go to term and give up the baby for adoption if it is still unwanted. But a woman who has been raped or on the pill or just caught by surprise, who does not want to get pregnant, should not be forced to go to term against her will...and most of the time, she'll find away to about regardless of what others will say or do against her.

All women should have the choice to decide what is right for their own bodies and psychological well being on this issue because of the repercussions an unwanted pregnancy could have on the woman, the child, and any formerly loved ones who may become resented because of their stances on the issue.  

[palnoki]

Hmmm abortion is a touchy subject I have to say that. I come form a school where all life is sacred and precious, weather human or not. I find most people don't weigh the risks of their actions, every time you have sex no matter the contraception, becoming pregnant is a possibility. If you are in a place in your life where you absolutely can't get pregnant and would consider abortion- DON'T HAVE SEX!! That being said, what is inside you is alive and to me it seems the same weather you kill the baby while it's young in the womb or if you were to kill the baby after delivery, both are kills.

Because of the importance of life, there should be a choice when it comes to weather the person dies or the baby but if such a scenario isn't happening, then I would say you need to carry to birth then give the baby up. It’s the human thing to do. If the baby is going to be retarded and messed up, that can be a strain people don't plan for and for quality of life that is a choice where the mother can decided to abort or not as well. So those are the two exceptions I think would justify it, but not rape or lack of foresight or carelessness. Also once you become pregnant you views can change, especially once the baby is born, miracle of life and all that.

Though everything I just said only holds true if you TRULY believe in the sanctity of life. People's personal view on the worth of life is different, factors can include intelligence, evolutionary complexity like dogs and cats vs insects and plants, biases against cultures and religions and also their emotional state as well. Some people just feel apathetic to the loss of life cause it really doesn't concern them for their own reasons. to them abortion is a solid choice. We also just put in our mind that the baby isn't alive, it's soul isn't there, even though nature in time will mature the baby into generally accepted living creature. I mean that argument is like saying a fetus and a rock are the same because they are both not alive, I tend to think the fetus has that capability for life where the rock doesn't. Because without interruption the inevitability for life makes the fetus alive to me. It ultimately comes down to the fact if you believe killing is okay for what ever stage of life, then to take a life at any stage is acceptable and age should not matter.  

[God-Raped-Me]

I really don't think that's a fair way to look at it at all.

First you have to understand the Human psyche and where sex falls into that. Saying that people should just "Not have sex" to me is an uneducated response. I hate to say this, and I'm sure there is a better way of saying it, but humans NEED to have sex.

Now you talk about the child's quality of life and how if the child were retarded then it would be an ok choice for you. Well quality of life doesn't just fall under that scenario. I couldn't have a baby and then let it go to adoption. One, I would feel like the worst mother in the world. Two when it gets older and finds out that I, the mother, didn't want it, it then develops the mental problems/ideas that most adopted children have, eg. "Why didn't mommy want me". Here is the worst case for me. They believe that their adoptive parents are the real parents then when the adoptive parents die the child/at that time adult discovers that what they thought their entire life was a lie and their world is shattered from then on. Ya that sounds like a great life to me. Oh that's IF they ever get adopted. If they don't they either bounce from family to family like many children in that situation do, or they are just never adopted. Ya no thanks I couldn't make a child of mine go through that, I would rather just not have the child.

Also, you're forgetting that if we did put these children up for adoption there just wouldn't be enough room for them. You think over population is a problem now? With until abortion is illegal, more people are pregnant than you think.