So who is a Christian?

[iDorkosaurous_Rex]

Yet, God won't like other people and things being treated as God. That's what I think.  

[The_Cursed_Phoenix]

I don't know much about Mormons but i do know about Catholics, I need to clear this up before i start in this Topic I am LCMS Lutheran Missouri Synod, and there are not many problems with Catholicism, but the problems they have are huge. For one the Pope how can he be the complete embodiment of our lord Jesus Christ? its just not possible, and Purgatory where in the Bible does it indicate that? and lastly whats all this about hailing Mary? she was a human being like you and me just like me and you she sinned and we should not worship a human, in the same way we don't worship a president. i don't mean to bash anyone here but could someone answer those questions?  

[WoodSorrelWitch]

@ Phoenix - that was the point of my thread. And a problem is still a problem, no matter how big or small. In the same way that sin is still sin, no matter what the sin.

My own proposal is that the devil put a spin on the real Christianity and made Catholicism, Mormonism, etc. The devil does trick us and can try and succeed at leading followers of God astray.  

[The_Cursed_Phoenix]

PawzPrint

@ Phoenix - that was the point of my thread. And a problem is still a problem, no matter how big or small. In the same way that sin is still sin, no matter what the sin.

My own proposal is that the devil put a spin on the real Christianity and made Catholicism, Mormonism, etc. The devil does trick us and can try and succeed at leading followers of God astray.

yep that's why i am LCMS Lutheran the ELCA group split off from us and formed their own church a few years ago and just recently they have allowed Gay ministers, that is just unacceptable, and they just keep getting more corrupt I'm afraid in a few years i will become a Non-Denominational Lutheran because i am starting to see more problems with my church and we are starting to get corrupt, but yes the devil does and i agree with you there.  

[Dinosaurous Brex]

I am a strong devoted Christian. But to clear but the Catholicism thing. Catholics are a bunch of Christianity just like Methodist and etc.. It's all Christianity. But the Mormon thing I have no idea about. But Catholics do it only a bit different from us. When I find an answer about what Catholics do different I'll let you know and why. smile (I have to ask my studies teacher. Lol.

And about the gay thing. Just wow. I can't believe that they did that. We are suppose to love them because they are still our brothers and sisters but that shouldn't be aloud because it's against the bible to be gay and that's just showing it's ok to be gay because the pastor or whoever is gay. Just wow.  

[TheRealClamChowder]

VK Fox

Interestingly enough, it is not Christ who decides what the final day will be. He doesn't even know. Not to say that as God, He couldn't. He could. However, He submits to the Father, as should we all.

Quote:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only
Matt 24:34-36 (KJV)

The idea of Purgatory is offensive. Christ was the ultimate sin offering. He paid for all that we have done, and there is no need for us to go through any purification process outside of coming into His blood and sharing His death.

Thank You! Thank You! I also am mortified by the fact that Purgatory has many people believing that there is a "middle"....

Anyways, I thought that it says in the Bible "to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord..."  

[rosadria]

TheRealClamChowder

VK Fox

Interestingly enough, it is not Christ who decides what the final day will be. He doesn't even know. Not to say that as God, He couldn't. He could. However, He submits to the Father, as should we all.

Quote:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only
Matt 24:34-36 (KJV)

The idea of Purgatory is offensive. Christ was the ultimate sin offering. He paid for all that we have done, and there is no need for us to go through any purification process outside of coming into His blood and sharing His death.

Thank You! Thank You! I also am mortified by the fact that Purgatory has many people believing that there is a "middle"....

Anyways, I thought that it says in the Bible "to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord..."

Yes, though the passage in question, 2 Corinthians 5:8, is speaking about denial of flesh and embracing that which is spiritual, rather than heaven vs. hell.
Paul was in his flesh (alive), but he was dead to it in Christ. You can be dead to flesh and alive to Christ. In fact, that is necessary. That is what baptism is. A death. You die to your fleshly nature and share in the death of Christ. So, while alive.. You're dead, you see?  

[rmcdra]

Roman Catholics are Christians. In fact they were the first sect of Christianity.

Mormons it's debatable since they do follow Christ and fall into the textbook definition of Christian by default but many sects don't accept them as Christian because they don't believe in the Trinity as three persons and one substance as the rest of Christianity does and have an expanded canon.  

[WoodSorrelWitch]

rmcdra

Roman Catholics are Christians. In fact they were the first sect of Christianity.

I disagree that Catholics are Christians. I just looked up a little bit on what R.Cs believe. They are not Christians.

rmcdra

Mormons it's debatable since they do follow Christ and fall into the textbook definition of Christian by default but many sects don't accept them as Christian because they don't believe in the Trinity as three persons and one substance as the rest of Christianity does and have an expanded canon.

Mormons are not Christians for a number of reasons. I actually feel bad for Mormons. They added to the Bible.  

[rmcdra]

PawzPrint

I disagree that Catholics are Christians. I just looked up a little bit on what R.Cs believe. They are not Christians.

Okay then what makes them not Christian?

Quote:

Mormons are not Christians for a number of reasons. I actually feel bad for Mormons. They added to the Bible.

Well the Protestants took away from the Bible. Guess protestants aren't real Christians then by your logic.  

[rosadria]

rmcdra

Roman Catholics are Christians. In fact they were the first sect of Christianity.

Mormons it's debatable since they do follow Christ and fall into the textbook definition of Christian by default but many sects don't accept them as Christian because they don't believe in the Trinity as three persons and one substance as the rest of Christianity does and have an expanded canon.

Out of curiosity, how are you defining sect? Christianity began in the first century, and the apostle Paul mentions a few heresies in his letters. Those would have predated the RC, which really got it's start in the 300's.  

[WoodSorrelWitch]

rmcdra

PawzPrint

I disagree that Catholics are Christians. I just looked up a little bit on what R.Cs believe. They are not Christians.

Okay then what makes them not Christian?

Quote:

Mormons are not Christians for a number of reasons. I actually feel bad for Mormons. They added to the Bible.

Well the Protestants took away from the Bible. Guess protestants aren't real Christians then by your logic.

"Even though Roman Catholic Church affirms the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and His physical resurrection, it greatly errors in its doctrine of salvation by adding works to salvation." - that's one thing that I have found.
This was from a roman priest “In recent years the church has reiterated again and again that we are saved by faith AND the sacraments of faith. BOTH ARE NECESSARY” (J.D. Crichton, Christian Celebration: The Sacraments, p. 65).
Compared to Romans 9:10 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

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And this is something VKFox posted in another thread:

VK Fox

One important thing to understand is that there is a secular definition of Christianity, and a Biblical definition of Christian. Scriptures tell us that even the demons acknowledge Him as Lord. By the secular definition (believing that Jesus is Lord and that He came to bring salvation), demons are Christians.

On to Mormonism. Here is their Articles of Faith. if you so desire to read them all for yourself. I'm only going to bring up a few.

Mormon Articles of Faith

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Except that the Bible can often contradict the Book of Mormon. One is right, not both.

Mormon Articles of Faith

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion will be built upon this [the American] continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

The Bible teaches that this world will be consumed in a fire so intense that even the atoms will be destroyed, not to mention that Israel has twelve tribes >< To my knowledge, America is never mentioned in the Bible. Except when the Bible talks about how more and more nations (not just us specifically) will turn away from Him as we get closer and closer to the rapture.

Mormon Articles of Faith

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

The Bible is a Christian's standard as to what is and what is not acceptable in worship and life in general. There are forms of worship that are not acceptable, and there have been people who have been killed for improper worship.

That seems to be a good website to me, if anyone wants to do some digging. Those are the ones that sent up immediate red flags for me. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to go through the entire website bit by bit tonight.

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Let me also say this:
It is not hard to have a cyclic debate about religion using the internet. I have found that one site says this and another says that and so on. So which is true? It's hard to say.

So I will say this. A person is a Christian if he or she has done what Romans 9:10 says. That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. A real Christian has a deep relationship with Jesus.  

[rmcdra]

VK Fox

Out of curiosity, how are you defining sect? Christianity began in the first century, and the apostle Paul mentions a few heresies in his letters. Those would have predated the RC, which really got it's start in the 300's.

Ah now we are getting at the problem with the "true Christian" argument.

Yes Paul does mention some of the what he saw as heresies within the developing Church. Trouble is that many of the first Apostles (the men that were with Christ before his ascension) weren't too keen on Paul either and thought he was teaching heresy. You know what heresy means right? " To choose". This choice is in regards to believing something against an established orthodoxy. The trouble with defining heresy before Roman Catholicism is that there was not a unified orthodoxy until the Roman Catholic Church. Of course there were some things that churches taught that could clearly be defined as heretical such as the sects that taught suicide being a one way ticket to heaven (violate the Law of Agape, a core teaching), but other matters were debatable such as cosmological and christological issues. When I say first sect, I am talking about the first unified and established Church that Protestant Christianity is derivative from. If we want to talk about what Church was literally the first sect, we have no clue since that's long lost but it I had to make a guess it was probably the Judaizer sect that James led.  

[rmcdra]

PawzPrint

"Even though Roman Catholic Church affirms the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and His physical resurrection, it greatly errors in its doctrine of salvation by adding works to salvation." - that's one thing that I have found.

And scripture supports this stance.

James 2

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Quote:

This was from a roman priest “In recent years the church has reiterated again and again that we are saved by faith AND the sacraments of faith. BOTH ARE NECESSARY” (J.D. Crichton, Christian Celebration: The Sacraments, p. 65).

Correction we are saved by God's grace and sacraments are a necessitas convenientiae, meaning that while the sacraments are not necessary they are the most appropriate ways of conferring God's grace to creatures that are corporeal and spiritual.

Quote:

Compared to Romans 9:10 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Matthew 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Quote:

Except that the Bible can often contradict the Book of Mormon. One is right, not both.

To a person that is not trained in a tradition, the bible can appear to contradict itself.

Quote:

The Bible teaches that this world will be consumed in a fire so intense that even the atoms will be destroyed, not to mention that Israel has twelve tribes >< To my knowledge, America is never mentioned in the Bible. Except when the Bible talks about how more and more nations (not just us specifically) will turn away from Him as we get closer and closer to the rapture.

The ten tribes are the lost tribes of Israel reference in
1 Kings 11:31 and 11:35. Also is there not to be a new heaven and new earth mentioned in Revelations 21?

Quote:

The Bible is a Christian's standard as to what is and what is not acceptable in worship and life in general. There are forms of worship that are not acceptable, and there have been people who have been killed for improper worship.

This is why the Father will separate the sheep from the goats.

Quote:

Let me also say this:
It is not hard to have a cyclic debate about religion using the internet. I have found that one site says this and another says that and so on. So which is true? It's hard to say.

What is true will stand, what is false will fall.

Quote:

So I will say this. A person is a Christian if he or she has done what Romans 9:10 says. That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. A real Christian has a deep relationship with Jesus.

Christ made it quite clear too

John 13

34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

 

[WoodSorrelWitch]

Regarding faith and works

This is a quote from my Apologetic Study Bible regarding James 2:14-26

quote

"Many skeptics argue that a contradiction exits between Paul's statement that "a man is justified by faith apart from works" and the teaching of James that "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". However, these positions actually complement one other.

First, Paul and James addressed different situations. On the one hand, Paul refuted a Jewish legalism holding that one must observe the law's requirements in order to be saved. On the other hand, james opposed an antinominanism that was twisting faith in Christ so much that no expression of works was necessary.

Second, when Paul used the word "justified," he meant "saved" or "declared righteous," whereas James meant "vindicated" or "authenticated." By "works," Paul menat "works of the law," whereas James meant works that faith produces.

In the light of the above, Paul was saying that one is declared righteous by God apart from the works of the law. James, by contrast, was saying that a person's faith produces works that vindicate his faith in Christ as genuine."

Referring to Matthew 7:21
Again from the same book:

quote

"A person who comes to Christ for salvation comes to Christ the Lord, who has the right to demand obedience because of His lordship. Note that Jesus did not teach here that works save us, but rather that doing good works is a reflection of our obedience to God's will. Attempting to earn salvation by works is a rejection of Christ's sovereignty. Sin replaces God's sovereignty with our human bent toward self-will and rebellion against God's will."

Referring to the Book of Mormon vs. the Bible.
This is true.
That is why it is said:

Galatians 1:6-7

"I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from Him who called you by the grace of Christ, and are turning to a different gospel - not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are troubling you and want to change the gospel of Christ."

He goes on to say that teaching a false gospel will cause you to be damned.



Referring to John 13:34
That is true too, but just because I love everyone as Christ loves me, that doesn't save me. Imho, Romans 9:10 and John 13:34 go hand in hand together but Romans must come first for one to receive the gift of slavation.