Pre destination

[Kyramud]

A Lonely Leaf

But now that I reflect on this, I am not sure. I mean, what about homosexuals? Every homosexual I know has told me that he or she cannot simply "turn off" the homosexuality. I started to thinking, if homosexuality is a sin, why would God allow people to be born that way.

Aren't all babies born innocent and pure?

Then, I kept thinking, other than my attraction to female, how is my attraction different compared to homosexuals? I can't "turn it off" either. There's a person I am attracted to, and try as I might, I can not make myself not be attracted towards her.

But this only confounds me further. I don't think attraction, regardless or sex, can change. I mean, once you are attracted to someone, only you can change that, after you learn about the person and what have you.

This pretty much leaves me stumped. I'll continue my readings and hopefully learn something more.

Heh, just because you are attracted to someone doesn't mean you've sinned. Even if you are attracted to someone, you don't have to act on that attraction. There have been plenty of young women throughout my short life that I've been attracted to physically, and that's not a sin. The sin would step in if I were to lust after those ladies, or if I were to have sex with them. Same thing goes for those of other sexual origins. If you're attracted to a guy, great. Doesn't mean you have to find a room together.

Also, attraction can change. It grows and fades. Just because you are attracted to someone now, doesn't mean you will be attracted to that person a couple months, or even a year from now.  

[Kyramud]

LyricalSoul93

gothic_black_rose

LyricalSoul93

CrimsonsDecayingRose

Basically: We make our own decisions, but God knows what those choices are.

God knows what those choices are as we make them, no one's arguing that he doesn't see and know us all.
But none of you have actually thought about the question. For someone to know something is going to happen, to be 100% sure that it's gonna happen, then the fact of that thing happening has to be already set in stone. Therefore, surely for God to know that we are going to do something, that act has to be already pre destined for us, we can't change it. See what I mean?

Not really. He knows what we are going to do because he knows our hearts. After all the guy created us. He knows our inner most workings even if others don't. He gave us free will because He didn't want a bunch of robots around. He wanted a relationship. Also if He would never predestine someone to go to Hell because it's not in His nature to do that. I say these things because I'm not a Calvenist even though I share a birthday with the guy.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, I'm just trying to get my head around these discrepancies, because I know there must be answers. But I think you're missing the point.
God knowing what we'll do because he knows our hearts is not the same as us knowing how people are going to behave, or that something's going to happen. It's not a worldly concept. Like, 99.9999999% of the time, my younger brother Steven will chose a chocolate milkshake over a strawberry one. I know this because I know him. So if I ask him what kind of milkshake he wants and he says chocolate I might say "I knew you'd say that!". This is not what I mean. I thought he would chose chocolate but I didn't know. I hadn't seen the future or anything. God knows and has no doubt. For him to have no doubt, he has to see into the future, and for him to see into the future, surely that future has to be set?

Besides which, you say God knows our hearts and how we will react. God made us. He made our hearts and souls. So are you saying that he made some of us weaker than other, some able to see his truth and some not? I'm just trying to understand how there is no inherent responsibility on him for the choices we make.

This is all assuming there's only one possible future. Like on a timeline. But, the future is in constant motion. It's affected by each and every decision we make. After we make a decision, the future changes based on the repercussions of that decision, and then we have another decision to make that will again affect the future, etc.

There's a book out called "Blink" or "Blink of an eye" by Ted Dekker, who's a brilliant author btw, that addresses this. I'm not saying that it's the only right answer on this subject, but it did make a great deal of sense, and it's how I view it.

In the book, the main character discovers an ability to see multiple possible futures at any given time. And I think God has that same power. He can see every possible future, every outcome, and knows what's going to happen if we make a certain decision. But, he doesn't force normally force us, he allows us to make the decisions.

It's a great read, and if you can get your hands on a copy, I would advise that you do. Actually, any of Dekker's books are good to have, although some of them aren't very "bright ray of sunshine" material.  

[LyricalSoul93]

Kyramud

LyricalSoul93

gothic_black_rose

LyricalSoul93

CrimsonsDecayingRose

Basically: We make our own decisions, but God knows what those choices are.

God knows what those choices are as we make them, no one's arguing that he doesn't see and know us all.
But none of you have actually thought about the question. For someone to know something is going to happen, to be 100% sure that it's gonna happen, then the fact of that thing happening has to be already set in stone. Therefore, surely for God to know that we are going to do something, that act has to be already pre destined for us, we can't change it. See what I mean?

Not really. He knows what we are going to do because he knows our hearts. After all the guy created us. He knows our inner most workings even if others don't. He gave us free will because He didn't want a bunch of robots around. He wanted a relationship. Also if He would never predestine someone to go to Hell because it's not in His nature to do that. I say these things because I'm not a Calvenist even though I share a birthday with the guy.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, I'm just trying to get my head around these discrepancies, because I know there must be answers. But I think you're missing the point.
God knowing what we'll do because he knows our hearts is not the same as us knowing how people are going to behave, or that something's going to happen. It's not a worldly concept. Like, 99.9999999% of the time, my younger brother Steven will chose a chocolate milkshake over a strawberry one. I know this because I know him. So if I ask him what kind of milkshake he wants and he says chocolate I might say "I knew you'd say that!". This is not what I mean. I thought he would chose chocolate but I didn't know. I hadn't seen the future or anything. God knows and has no doubt. For him to have no doubt, he has to see into the future, and for him to see into the future, surely that future has to be set?

Besides which, you say God knows our hearts and how we will react. God made us. He made our hearts and souls. So are you saying that he made some of us weaker than other, some able to see his truth and some not? I'm just trying to understand how there is no inherent responsibility on him for the choices we make.

This is all assuming there's only one possible future. Like on a timeline. But, the future is in constant motion. It's affected by each and every decision we make. After we make a decision, the future changes based on the repercussions of that decision, and then we have another decision to make that will again affect the future, etc.

There's a book out called "Blink" or "Blink of an eye" by Ted Dekker, who's a brilliant author btw, that addresses this. I'm not saying that it's the only right answer on this subject, but it did make a great deal of sense, and it's how I view it.

In the book, the main character discovers an ability to see multiple possible futures at any given time. And I think God has that same power. He can see every possible future, every outcome, and knows what's going to happen if we make a certain decision. But, he doesn't force normally force us, he allows us to make the decisions.

It's a great read, and if you can get your hands on a copy, I would advise that you do. Actually, any of Dekker's books are good to have, although some of them aren't very "bright ray of sunshine" material.

This actually makes a lot of sense to me, thanks. =) I certainly will look into getting that book.  

[Shadows-shine]

I just wanted to toss this in here, I know some of my questions maybe repeated, but I'm sorry, it helped me build into the post as a whole...

So if it's already predetermined who is saved and who is going to hell, then why did God grant us free will? I mean if He already has decided who is His elect and who isn't then there is no need for any one to do any thing.


The problem with the passage Romans 8:28-30, where the word predestinated is used, is the Greek word "proorizo", which is comprised of the prefix "pro" (meaning before or infront of; beforehand, or earlier) and the verd "orizo" (meaning to determine, mark out, designate, destine, ordain, appoint, or to divide or separate from...to preappoint or pre-ordain). The word "proorizo" can be translated several different ways. Throughout history, various combinations of words have been used to translate the term over a period covering hundreds of years.

Here are some examples of the how the word (proorizo) has been translated:

*Wycliff (1380)- bifor ordeyned (Rom. 8:29) - bifor ordeyned (Rom. 8:30)

*Tyndale (1534)- ordeyned before (Rom. 8:29) - appoynted before (Rom. 8:30)

*Cranmer (1539)- ordeyned before (Rom. 8:29) - appoynted before (Rom. 8:30)

*Geneva (1657)- ordeyned before (Rom. 8:29) - appoyneted before (Rom. 8:30)

*Rheims (1582)- predestinated (Rom. 8:29) - predestinated (Rom. 8:30)

*Standard Rev. (1881)- foreordained (Rom. 8:29) - foreordained (Rom. 8:30)

*James Moffatt (1913)- decreed of old (Rom. 8:29) - has thus decreed (Rom. 8:30)

*J.B. Phillips (195 cool - chose them (Rom. 8:29) - chose them long ago (Rom. 8:30)

*Wm. F. Beck (1963)- appointed long ago (Rom. 8:29) - appointed long ago (Rom. 8:30)

*New Test. in Today's English (1966)- had also set apart (Rom. 8:29) - had already set apart (Rom. 8:30)


Along with these translations, the Greek word "proorizo" can be translated several other ways, examples are, such English words as allotted, planned, and foreapproved. The most correct way to translate the word cannot be determined by simply referring to a dictionary. The word that is chosen may not fully or accurately convey the original writers intent. The accuracy or any translation depends on the translators ability to determine what the original author had in mind and then convey that idea to the reader in another language.
((I pulled this from various sources around the internet and books that I have at home))

The English word "predestinate" does not accurately show what Paul was talking about in Romans 8:29-30. Look at the verse in context. In verses 4-6, Paul tells members to "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit... For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." In verses 14-17, Paul explains "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God, and joint-heirs with Christ." In verse 24, he talks about the need for hope in order to attain promised blessings, and in verse 28, he states that "all things work together for good to them that love God" and who are foreordained to accept the gospel and become like Christ.

Those who are "foreordained" are justified, sanctified, and glorified (see vs. 30) through the saving ordinances of the gospel (baptism, laying on of hands, etc.) and obeying the commandments ---which is Paul's theme throughout all his epistles.

Paul's teachings can't be reconciled with the concept of Calvinistic predestination, and to translate "proorizo" as predestination doesn't convey accurately the apostle's intended meaning. So, Paul did not believe in or teach predestination as Calvinists have defined the word. It's been the interpreters who have confused the doctrine. Paul has taught that God loves all His children and offers salvation to all of them who will come unto Christ and are justified and sanctified through obedience to the covenants they make with Him.

So I ask again, what is the point of free will if our fate is already predetermined? And why would God offer salvation to all His children, if He has already decided who is going to hell and who is not?  

[starry night-163]

Maybe this can help shed some light on this, you can listen to it by the way by clicking on the play button up on top where it says "listen", you can't miss it's under the title smile http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/BRG-90-20_Election-and-Predestination-The-Sovereignty-of-God-in-Salvation?q=predestination