Explain these 2 verses?

[Shadows-shine]

God put the tree of knowledge in the garden as well as the tree of life to give man a choice. Adam and Eve chose to partake of the tree of knowledge first rather than the tree of life.


I think the point you guys are missing is that it's not that God wanted man to fall or sin, but He wanted them to have a choice. It's the same thing He told Joshua, "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve". That was told to Adam and Eve, especially since God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He gave us agency, the ability to choose for ourselves. So saying that we were just supposed to remain in the Garden of Eden doing whatever is just as bad as saying God wanted man to fall. Neither view is right. He WANTED and still WANTS man to have the choice, that way our agency isn't taken from us and we are forced into doing some thing we may or may not want to do.

So, as a result of the fall, man is separated from God, thus brings in the need for the Saviour. We cannot say what would have happened if man had never fallen, that is not for us to know. It's not useful nor pertinent for our salvation to sit here and speculate what would have happened or what man would or would not need if the fall had not happened.  

[Your Boy Roy]

On_Fire_4_CHRIST

Aizen-Sama05

On_Fire_4_CHRIST

Aizen-Sama05

Br1ttana, the answer is simple. God created Man to be imperfect. He designed them to fall into Sin. Once they were at that point, he blessed several people, such as Moses and Elijah, to keep them from falling purely into Satan's hold. That went on for 42 generations, until the Immaculate Mary give birth to the Son of Man, Christ. Christ performed his miracles, getting his handful of followers. Then he was crucified, and his suffering washed away all of the sins of the past 42 generations.

It was God's plan for mankind to fall, so that they could be saved. If they didn't fall, there would have been no need for a Savior.

Hold up, hold up, hold up. That is very inaccurate. God did not will for man to fall at all! The same God who hates sin would not say "Oh hey. You must sin!" That is hypocritical and makes no sense whatsoever. God is perfect and cannot contradict himself.

God did not want the creations He loved, that He made to glorify Himself to sin and be separated from Him. However, He knew what man would do and therefore He made a plan to handle it. He made man to glorify Himself with the hopes of being together with him. However, He knew what would happen. That did not make Him decide to do something else or get rid of free will. He went on, knowing what man would do and wishing they would do otherwise. However, as He already knew would happen, man sinned and because of that, He made a plan of redemption.

Also you cannot say that there would be no need for the Savior if man did not sin. Do recall that God is the Trinity. God is three in one: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. And since God is eternal, that means God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all existed before the beginning of time. So, to say that there would be no need for the Savior (who is Jesus Christ - God the Son), is to say that there would be no need for God at all if man had not sinned. Quite the contrary. Because of man's sinful nature, we need God.

I did not say that there was no need for the Son. I said that there would be no need for the Savior. Also, if God did not will for Man to fall, a) he wouldn't have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Evil and b) they wouldn't have fallen. We cannot see God's Plan. So therefore we cannot concretely say that we know what was and what wasn't a part of His plan. He allowed Man to fall, he knew it would happen. He is all-knowing, all powerful. Whatever he says goes. Therefore, he had to allow Man to fall for it to happen.

Now you're saying something different. Are you saying He willed for man to fall or that He knew that man would fall? They are 2 very different things. Omniscient does not mean willing for something to happen. There was an example some guy used. I don't remember all of it, or who it was but I'll say what I remember.

"I can leave a cookie on the kitchen counter and leave, knowing that when he comes in he will eat the cookie. Nothing I did affected how he made the decision to eat the cookie, but I knew he was going to eat it anyway."

Something like that. But yeah. Omniscience is not will.

Also, by saying there would be no need for the Savior is still saying that there would be no need for Jesus, because Jesus is the Savior. Now if you're saying there would be no need for anyone to save man, who cares? God saved man, which was and is nothing. Why should anyone bother saving man in the first place? And God could have refused to create man if He willed. So using the logic that God willed for man to fall into sin because otherwise there would be no need for the Savior doesn't work. God could have a) decided not to create man, and b) decided not to save man.

In addition, you said that "We cannot see God's Plan. So therefore we cannot concretely say that we know what was and what wasn't a part of His plan." Yet you said "Also, if God did not will for Man to fall, a)He wouldn't have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden..." (it was not the garden of evil, but the garden of eden). You cannot say that God put the tree there for man to fall. First off, it's in James that God does not and cannot tempt anyone. So we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone. We know that God absolutely despises sin. It's all over the Bible, whether direct or indirect. It would be hypocritical and contradictory for God to make sure man fell and then punish them for something He knew/willed to happen. God, again, cannot contradict Himself. If He did, He wouldn't be God; He wouldn't be perfect. We certainly know that the God who hates man could not have willed for man to fall.

You are acting like you can see into God's mind. No one truly understands Him. What we do know is that He is Almighty. He has a plan for each and every person that has ever existed, all the way to Adam and Eve. Correct, he does not tempt people. He created Satan to do so, for there can not be Good if there is not Evil. And if the Divine must also have evil, so must humanity. The serpent is the cause of that. By tricking Eve, and therefore Adam, into eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he allowed for people to choose between a path of justice, and a path of darkness. Without darkness, there is no light. Without light, there is no darkness.  

[Br1ttana]

You can tickle me pink, orange, red, or blue, but not grey

...Ok, 1 I like Shadows answer very much. ^^

2......... I'll just save that for later since its 5 in the morning for me now. I should have been in bed 4-5 hours ago. >_<

Because grey will not do.

 

[Br1ttana]

Quote:

he does not tempt people. He created Satan to do so

You can tickle me pink, orange, red, or blue, but not grey

     Again, that makes no sense at all. A. Satan was good at first. (which obviously was before we came around) The angel Lucifer who was head of the angels and was at the left hand of God served and followed the Lord. So that right there should kind of smash your "he was created to be bad/tempt people" statement. Because if he was once good, then he couldn't have been created to be bad, otherwise he would have been bad the whole time! 2. If that was the case then God creating satan to tempt people would be the same as God tempting people! That's him basically saying "I'm not going to tempt people directly, I'll just make someone else and tell him to do it for me!" It just doesn't make any sense! gonk      

Because grey will not do.

 

[On_Fire_4_CHRIST]

Aizen-Sama05

On_Fire_4_CHRIST

Aizen-Sama05

On_Fire_4_CHRIST

Aizen-Sama05

Br1ttana, the answer is simple. God created Man to be imperfect. He designed them to fall into Sin. Once they were at that point, he blessed several people, such as Moses and Elijah, to keep them from falling purely into Satan's hold. That went on for 42 generations, until the Immaculate Mary give birth to the Son of Man, Christ. Christ performed his miracles, getting his handful of followers. Then he was crucified, and his suffering washed away all of the sins of the past 42 generations.

It was God's plan for mankind to fall, so that they could be saved. If they didn't fall, there would have been no need for a Savior.

Hold up, hold up, hold up. That is very inaccurate. God did not will for man to fall at all! The same God who hates sin would not say "Oh hey. You must sin!" That is hypocritical and makes no sense whatsoever. God is perfect and cannot contradict himself.

God did not want the creations He loved, that He made to glorify Himself to sin and be separated from Him. However, He knew what man would do and therefore He made a plan to handle it. He made man to glorify Himself with the hopes of being together with him. However, He knew what would happen. That did not make Him decide to do something else or get rid of free will. He went on, knowing what man would do and wishing they would do otherwise. However, as He already knew would happen, man sinned and because of that, He made a plan of redemption.

Also you cannot say that there would be no need for the Savior if man did not sin. Do recall that God is the Trinity. God is three in one: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. And since God is eternal, that means God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all existed before the beginning of time. So, to say that there would be no need for the Savior (who is Jesus Christ - God the Son), is to say that there would be no need for God at all if man had not sinned. Quite the contrary. Because of man's sinful nature, we need God.

I did not say that there was no need for the Son. I said that there would be no need for the Savior. Also, if God did not will for Man to fall, a) he wouldn't have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Evil and b) they wouldn't have fallen. We cannot see God's Plan. So therefore we cannot concretely say that we know what was and what wasn't a part of His plan. He allowed Man to fall, he knew it would happen. He is all-knowing, all powerful. Whatever he says goes. Therefore, he had to allow Man to fall for it to happen.

Now you're saying something different. Are you saying He willed for man to fall or that He knew that man would fall? They are 2 very different things. Omniscient does not mean willing for something to happen. There was an example some guy used. I don't remember all of it, or who it was but I'll say what I remember.

"I can leave a cookie on the kitchen counter and leave, knowing that when he comes in he will eat the cookie. Nothing I did affected how he made the decision to eat the cookie, but I knew he was going to eat it anyway."

Something like that. But yeah. Omniscience is not will.

Also, by saying there would be no need for the Savior is still saying that there would be no need for Jesus, because Jesus is the Savior. Now if you're saying there would be no need for anyone to save man, who cares? God saved man, which was and is nothing. Why should anyone bother saving man in the first place? And God could have refused to create man if He willed. So using the logic that God willed for man to fall into sin because otherwise there would be no need for the Savior doesn't work. God could have a) decided not to create man, and b) decided not to save man.

In addition, you said that "We cannot see God's Plan. So therefore we cannot concretely say that we know what was and what wasn't a part of His plan." Yet you said "Also, if God did not will for Man to fall, a)He wouldn't have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden..." (it was not the garden of evil, but the garden of eden). You cannot say that God put the tree there for man to fall. First off, it's in James that God does not and cannot tempt anyone. So we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone. We know that God absolutely despises sin. It's all over the Bible, whether direct or indirect. It would be hypocritical and contradictory for God to make sure man fell and then punish them for something He knew/willed to happen. God, again, cannot contradict Himself. If He did, He wouldn't be God; He wouldn't be perfect. We certainly know that the God who hates man could not have willed for man to fall.

You are acting like you can see into God's mind. No one truly understands Him. What we do know is that He is Almighty. He has a plan for each and every person that has ever existed, all the way to Adam and Eve. Correct, he does not tempt people. He created Satan to do so, for there can not be Good if there is not Evil. And if the Divine must also have evil, so must humanity. The serpent is the cause of that. By tricking Eve, and therefore Adam, into eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he allowed for people to choose between a path of justice, and a path of darkness. Without darkness, there is no light. Without light, there is no darkness.

Yeah I agree Brittana. You still aren't making sense. Tempting someone indrectly is still tempting them. Secondly, no I cannot see into God's mind. However I know who God is...or what He is. Perfect, non-contradictory, loving, amzing, etc. Emphasis on non-contradictory, which falls in line with the whole "perfect" attribute He has. God cannot be hypocritical, contradictory, etc. because that would make Him imperfect. He is not going to create something bad, especially not when He is the pure essence of good. He cannot create something bad because that creates conflict with His divine nature. You cannot say there would be no good without evil. In the beginning it was just God, and then He created everything. Was He in any way, shape or form bad? No. What about before Lucifer decided to act stupid and attempt to overthrow God - the omnipotent Creator of all - and get tossed in to Hell and renamed Satan? Was there evil before then? No. Just nice happy Heaven and obedient angels. There can indeed be good without evil. This is certainly so because when God was alone in the beginning, He was still perfect, as He has always been. Good is not the absence of evil. Good is good, and evil is the opposite of it. Don't get these things mixed up.  

[__MochaNeko__TM__]

On_Fire_4_CHRIST

Now you're saying something different. Are you saying He willed for man to fall or that He knew that man would fall? They are 2 very different things. Omniscient does not mean willing for something to happen. There was an example some guy used. I don't remember all of it, or who it was but I'll say what I remember.

"I can leave a cookie on the kitchen counter and leave, knowing that when he comes in he will eat the cookie. Nothing I did affected how he made the decision to eat the cookie, but I knew he was going to eat it anyway."

Something like that. But yeah. Omniscience is not will.

Also, by saying there would be no need for the Savior is still saying that there would be no need for Jesus, because Jesus is the Savior. Now if you're saying there would be no need for anyone to save man, who cares? God saved man, which was and is nothing. Why should anyone bother saving man in the first place? And God could have refused to create man if He willed. So using the logic that God willed for man to fall into sin because otherwise there would be no need for the Savior doesn't work. God could have a) decided not to create man, and b) decided not to save man.

In addition, you said that "We cannot see God's Plan. So therefore we cannot concretely say that we know what was and what wasn't a part of His plan." Yet you said "Also, if God did not will for Man to fall, a)He wouldn't have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden..." (it was not the garden of evil, but the garden of eden). You cannot say that God put the tree there for man to fall. First off, it's in James that God does not and cannot tempt anyone. So we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone. We know that God absolutely despises sin. It's all over the Bible, whether direct or indirect. It would be hypocritical and contradictory for God to make sure man fell and then punish them for something He knew/willed to happen. God, again, cannot contradict Himself. If He did, He wouldn't be God; He wouldn't be perfect. We certainly know that the God who hates man could not have willed for man to fall.

Uhm.. I know this is prolly gonna start some huge heated discussion, but I felt I had to kindof butt-in.
First off, let me admit I only read the last paragraph of your post, so I will only point out what I see as incorrect from that, and I'll try to go in order so as to not confuse myself, much less anyone else.

Quote:

You cannot say that God put the tree there for man to fall. First off, it's in James that God does not and cannot tempt anyone. So we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone.

You're correct in saying that God cannot tempt anyone. That, of course, would be correct since you did take that straight from the Bible. However, saying that "we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone" is entirely incorrect.
God is all-knowing, and God knew that, if Adam and Eve were to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, their eyes would be opened. Not just physically, but spiritually. This is proved when they did eat of the tree and became ashamed of being naked, and they also knew they had done wrong because they hid from God.
However, by God creating that tree and placing it there knowing they would eat of the tree is not the same as God tempting them. God creates things that man can sin by. He creates the prostitute, the drug dealer, the murderer. But he doesn't create the sin. Sin is a human choice that is created from the Devil himself. To say that God wouldn't put the tree in the garden for man to fall because God tempts no man would be the same as saying God doesn't create anything that can cause sin. There is no way for that to be true.
And the reason God put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden, knowing they would fall, is because, from before time, God had planned out that his Son, Jesus, would come to Earth and offer Salvation to all of us who would but believe. If it weren't for the tree, Salvation would be unnecessary. If it weren't for Salvation, we would be unable to have an honest relationship with God.

Quote:

We know that God absolutely despises sin. It's all over the Bible, whether direct or indirect. It would be hypocritical and contradictory for God to make sure man fell and then punish them for something He knew/willed to happen. God, again, cannot contradict Himself. If He did, He wouldn't be God; He wouldn't be perfect. We certainly know that the God who hates man could not have willed for man to fall.

It is true, God hates sin. Sin is complete and willful opposition to God, so why wouldn't he hate it? However, as I stated before, God willed for his son to come to Earth, die, and give us a way to have a right relationship with him before time. In order for that to happen, man had to sin. When Jesus was on the cross, God had to turn his face away from Jesus because there was so much sin there. There's proof that he hates sin. In fact, God can't even stand to be around sin. But, as I said, God must have willed for the fall of man in order to bring us Salvation and a chance at a right relationship with God.
God never contradicts himself. That is true. That is why "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin" makes perfect sense. Jesus poured out his blood for our sins. The Father gave up his Son, the spotless Lamb of God, as a sacrifice to atone for our sins so that we could fellowship with God in heaven.
And since when did God hate man? If God hated man, why would he have created man? If God hates man, why would he have sent his son to die for man's sins?



Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing.  

[Kyramud]

Gotta ask something. Can anyone show me in the bible where they're pulling all this from? I see a bunch of arguments being made, but not a shred of evidence to support the claims. If there's scripture to support it, I'm all for it. But making carpet statements of beliefs/opinions without a shred of truth (i.e. the bible, since the bible =truth) behind it is, imo, worthless.

Also, the whole 'there can be no light without darkness, no good w/o evil' thing is an entirely humanistic view. There was good without evil. Take a look in your bible. You don't even have to dig that far, it's in the first book. God was abiding (maybe go look up a definition for the word 'abide'. It's a real eye opener) with man for who knows how long? Was there evil then? no... Was their relationship any less than the relationship we have with Him now?

Also, how is it that someone can make the claim that "No one can truly understand Him" or "We can't know God's plan" or something along those lines, and then proceed in the very same paragraph to try to tell someone else what God really meant? Seems a bit fishy to me, don't you agree confused  

[__MochaNeko__TM__]

Kyramud

Gotta ask something. Can anyone show me in the bible where they're pulling all this from? I see a bunch of arguments being made, but not a shred of evidence to support the claims. If there's scripture to support it, I'm all for it. But making carpet statements of beliefs/opinions without a shred of truth (i.e. the bible, since the bible =truth) behind it is, imo, worthless.

Also, the whole 'there can be no light without darkness, no good w/o evil' thing is an entirely humanistic view. There was good without evil. Take a look in your bible. You don't even have to dig that far, it's in the first book. God was abiding (maybe go look up a definition for the word 'abide'. It's a real eye opener) with man for who knows how long? Was there evil then? no... Was their relationship any less than the relationship we have with Him now?

Also, how is it that someone can make the claim that "No one can truly understand Him" or "We can't know God's plan" or something along those lines, and then proceed in the very same paragraph to try to tell someone else what God really meant? Seems a bit fishy to me, don't you agree confused

I'll show you what Biblical proof I can find at the moment. I was on my way to bed when I saw your post, but I'll post some scripture anyway. It's not all the references I could show. Just a few.

The entire book of Romans, really, is good in explaining sin and such. Get into it. smile
For all the things I mentioned, try the following passages:

This passage shows that the law was placed that sin might increase, but by doing so, grace would increase all the more. Either way, God is above all and in control of all:
Romans 5:20-21 (NIV)
The law was added so that the tresspass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This passage is about how God allows people to sin. It shows that man used God's creation to sin, although that was not the intention of the creation:
Romans 1:21-27 (NIV)
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error..

This passage talks about how we, as Christians, were called before time began. Without Salvation, we would be lost, not Christians, and therefore God could not have called us. Therefore, Salvation must have also been planned before time began. It also states that God works out everything to conform to God's will and purpose. Therefore, man's fall, again, must have been in God's will:
Ephesians1:3-14 (NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.  

[On_Fire_4_CHRIST]

emocolossal636

On_Fire_4_CHRIST

Now you're saying something different. Are you saying He willed for man to fall or that He knew that man would fall? They are 2 very different things. Omniscient does not mean willing for something to happen. There was an example some guy used. I don't remember all of it, or who it was but I'll say what I remember.

"I can leave a cookie on the kitchen counter and leave, knowing that when he comes in he will eat the cookie. Nothing I did affected how he made the decision to eat the cookie, but I knew he was going to eat it anyway."

Something like that. But yeah. Omniscience is not will.

Also, by saying there would be no need for the Savior is still saying that there would be no need for Jesus, because Jesus is the Savior. Now if you're saying there would be no need for anyone to save man, who cares? God saved man, which was and is nothing. Why should anyone bother saving man in the first place? And God could have refused to create man if He willed. So using the logic that God willed for man to fall into sin because otherwise there would be no need for the Savior doesn't work. God could have a) decided not to create man, and b) decided not to save man.

In addition, you said that "We cannot see God's Plan. So therefore we cannot concretely say that we know what was and what wasn't a part of His plan." Yet you said "Also, if God did not will for Man to fall, a)He wouldn't have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden..." (it was not the garden of evil, but the garden of eden). You cannot say that God put the tree there for man to fall. First off, it's in James that God does not and cannot tempt anyone. So we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone. We know that God absolutely despises sin. It's all over the Bible, whether direct or indirect. It would be hypocritical and contradictory for God to make sure man fell and then punish them for something He knew/willed to happen. God, again, cannot contradict Himself. If He did, He wouldn't be God; He wouldn't be perfect. We certainly know that the God who hates man could not have willed for man to fall.

Uhm.. I know this is prolly gonna start some huge heated discussion, but I felt I had to kindof butt-in.
First off, let me admit I only read the last paragraph of your post, so I will only point out what I see as incorrect from that, and I'll try to go in order so as to not confuse myself, much less anyone else.

Quote:

You cannot say that God put the tree there for man to fall. First off, it's in James that God does not and cannot tempt anyone. So we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone.

You're correct in saying that God cannot tempt anyone. That, of course, would be correct since you did take that straight from the Bible. However, saying that "we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone" is entirely incorrect.
God is all-knowing, and God knew that, if Adam and Eve were to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, their eyes would be opened. Not just physically, but spiritually. This is proved when they did eat of the tree and became ashamed of being naked, and they also knew they had done wrong because they hid from God.
However, by God creating that tree and placing it there knowing they would eat of the tree is not the same as God tempting them. God creates things that man can sin by. He creates the prostitute, the drug dealer, the murderer. But he doesn't create the sin. Sin is a human choice that is created from the Devil himself. To say that God wouldn't put the tree in the garden for man to fall because God tempts no man would be the same as saying God doesn't create anything that can cause sin. There is no way for that to be true.
And the reason God put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden, knowing they would fall, is because, from before time, God had planned out that his Son, Jesus, would come to Earth and offer Salvation to all of us who would but believe. If it weren't for the tree, Salvation would be unnecessary. If it weren't for Salvation, we would be unable to have an honest relationship with God.

Quote:

We know that God absolutely despises sin. It's all over the Bible, whether direct or indirect. It would be hypocritical and contradictory for God to make sure man fell and then punish them for something He knew/willed to happen. God, again, cannot contradict Himself. If He did, He wouldn't be God; He wouldn't be perfect. We certainly know that the God who hates man could not have willed for man to fall.

It is true, God hates sin. Sin is complete and willful opposition to God, so why wouldn't he hate it? However, as I stated before, God willed for his son to come to Earth, die, and give us a way to have a right relationship with him before time. In order for that to happen, man had to sin. When Jesus was on the cross, God had to turn his face away from Jesus because there was so much sin there. There's proof that he hates sin. In fact, God can't even stand to be around sin. But, as I said, God must have willed for the fall of man in order to bring us Salvation and a chance at a right relationship with God.
God never contradicts himself. That is true. That is why "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin" makes perfect sense. Jesus poured out his blood for our sins. The Father gave up his Son, the spotless Lamb of God, as a sacrifice to atone for our sins so that we could fellowship with God in heaven.
And since when did God hate man? If God hated man, why would he have created man? If God hates man, why would he have sent his son to die for man's sins?


Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing.

I'm going to try to make this concise because....yeah. I'm too tired to write paragraphs. So let's see um.....first off. The God hates mane thing was a TOTAL ERROR! LOL! I meant to say sin! xd

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that since God is all-knowing, everything must've gone according to His will. I wouldn't say that's so. The one thing that I believe many fail to understand is that there is a difference between a perfect will and a perfect plan. Since God hates sin, it would be 100% contradictory for God to want sin to happen. It's simple. One says "I hate sin," says Bob. *5 hours later* "You should sin!" shouts Bob. "Way to go hypocrite, replies Larry." And since God cannot contradict Himself, He could not have wanted man to sin.

Back to my statement "the one thing that I believe many fail to understand is that there is a difference between a perfect will and a perfect plan. God *wanted* man to be obedient, but *knowing* what would happen, He created a *plan* to fix things. I hope that makes sense, I can't really think of the best example right now. "Well if you say that, why didn't He just keep the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil out of the Garden of Eden?" Well, He does allow free will, doesn't He? He knew that if He did things regularly without interference, man would sin. However, He lets people make their own decisions. Taking the tree out of the picture would in turn reshape man's decisions by eliminating the thing that would cause them to sin. Whether indirect or direct, He would be changing man's decision. Deuteronomy 30:19 - This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live. Again, God allows free will, so yeah.

Summary: 1)To want something, but to create something that would knowingly form an unfavorable result is clearly contradictory just by definition. God could not have wanted something to happen that would go against His will and nature, nor create something that would knowingly go against His will and nature. 2)God *knew* what would happen so - being the free-will-allowing God that He is - God created a plan that, while still allowing free will, would make a way for man to be reunited with Him and for there to be total separation from good and evil.

The last paragraph probably would have made more sense if you read all of the comment so please read everything this time.  

[__MochaNeko__TM__]

On_Fire_4_CHRIST

emocolossal636

On_Fire_4_CHRIST

Now you're saying something different. Are you saying He willed for man to fall or that He knew that man would fall? They are 2 very different things. Omniscient does not mean willing for something to happen. There was an example some guy used. I don't remember all of it, or who it was but I'll say what I remember.

"I can leave a cookie on the kitchen counter and leave, knowing that when he comes in he will eat the cookie. Nothing I did affected how he made the decision to eat the cookie, but I knew he was going to eat it anyway."

Something like that. But yeah. Omniscience is not will.

Also, by saying there would be no need for the Savior is still saying that there would be no need for Jesus, because Jesus is the Savior. Now if you're saying there would be no need for anyone to save man, who cares? God saved man, which was and is nothing. Why should anyone bother saving man in the first place? And God could have refused to create man if He willed. So using the logic that God willed for man to fall into sin because otherwise there would be no need for the Savior doesn't work. God could have a) decided not to create man, and b) decided not to save man.

In addition, you said that "We cannot see God's Plan. So therefore we cannot concretely say that we know what was and what wasn't a part of His plan." Yet you said "Also, if God did not will for Man to fall, a)He wouldn't have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden..." (it was not the garden of evil, but the garden of eden). You cannot say that God put the tree there for man to fall. First off, it's in James that God does not and cannot tempt anyone. So we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone. We know that God absolutely despises sin. It's all over the Bible, whether direct or indirect. It would be hypocritical and contradictory for God to make sure man fell and then punish them for something He knew/willed to happen. God, again, cannot contradict Himself. If He did, He wouldn't be God; He wouldn't be perfect. We certainly know that the God who hates man could not have willed for man to fall.

Uhm.. I know this is prolly gonna start some huge heated discussion, but I felt I had to kindof butt-in.
First off, let me admit I only read the last paragraph of your post, so I will only point out what I see as incorrect from that, and I'll try to go in order so as to not confuse myself, much less anyone else.

Quote:

You cannot say that God put the tree there for man to fall. First off, it's in James that God does not and cannot tempt anyone. So we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone.

You're correct in saying that God cannot tempt anyone. That, of course, would be correct since you did take that straight from the Bible. However, saying that "we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone" is entirely incorrect.
God is all-knowing, and God knew that, if Adam and Eve were to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, their eyes would be opened. Not just physically, but spiritually. This is proved when they did eat of the tree and became ashamed of being naked, and they also knew they had done wrong because they hid from God.
However, by God creating that tree and placing it there knowing they would eat of the tree is not the same as God tempting them. God creates things that man can sin by. He creates the prostitute, the drug dealer, the murderer. But he doesn't create the sin. Sin is a human choice that is created from the Devil himself. To say that God wouldn't put the tree in the garden for man to fall because God tempts no man would be the same as saying God doesn't create anything that can cause sin. There is no way for that to be true.
And the reason God put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden, knowing they would fall, is because, from before time, God had planned out that his Son, Jesus, would come to Earth and offer Salvation to all of us who would but believe. If it weren't for the tree, Salvation would be unnecessary. If it weren't for Salvation, we would be unable to have an honest relationship with God.

Quote:

We know that God absolutely despises sin. It's all over the Bible, whether direct or indirect. It would be hypocritical and contradictory for God to make sure man fell and then punish them for something He knew/willed to happen. God, again, cannot contradict Himself. If He did, He wouldn't be God; He wouldn't be perfect. We certainly know that the God who hates man could not have willed for man to fall.

It is true, God hates sin. Sin is complete and willful opposition to God, so why wouldn't he hate it? However, as I stated before, God willed for his son to come to Earth, die, and give us a way to have a right relationship with him before time. In order for that to happen, man had to sin. When Jesus was on the cross, God had to turn his face away from Jesus because there was so much sin there. There's proof that he hates sin. In fact, God can't even stand to be around sin. But, as I said, God must have willed for the fall of man in order to bring us Salvation and a chance at a right relationship with God.
God never contradicts himself. That is true. That is why "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin" makes perfect sense. Jesus poured out his blood for our sins. The Father gave up his Son, the spotless Lamb of God, as a sacrifice to atone for our sins so that we could fellowship with God in heaven.
And since when did God hate man? If God hated man, why would he have created man? If God hates man, why would he have sent his son to die for man's sins?


Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing.

I'm going to try to make this concise because....yeah. I'm too tired to write paragraphs. So let's see um.....first off. The God hates mane thing was a TOTAL ERROR! LOL! I meant to say sin! xd

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that since God is all-knowing, everything must've gone according to His will. I wouldn't say that's so. The one thing that I believe many fail to understand is that there is a difference between a perfect will and a perfect plan. Since God hates sin, it would be 100% contradictory for God to want sin to happen. It's simple. One says "I hate sin," says Bob. *5 hours later* "You should sin!" shouts Bob. "Way to go hypocrite, replies Larry." And since God cannot contradict Himself, He could not have wanted man to sin.

Back to my statement "the one thing that I believe many fail to understand is that there is a difference between a perfect will and a perfect plan. God *wanted* man to be obedient, but *knowing* what would happen, He created a *plan* to fix things. I hope that makes sense, I can't really think of the best example right now. "Well if you say that, why didn't He just keep the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil out of the Garden of Eden?" Well, He does allow free will, doesn't He? He knew that if He did things regularly without interference, man would sin. However, He lets people make their own decisions. Taking the tree out of the picture would in turn reshape man's decisions by eliminating the thing that would cause them to sin. Whether indirect or direct, He would be changing man's decision. Deuteronomy 30:19 - This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live. Again, God allows free will, so yeah.

Summary: 1)To want something, but to create something that would knowingly form an unfavorable result is clearly contradictory just by definition. God could not have wanted something to happen that would go against His will and nature, nor create something that would knowingly go against His will and nature. 2)God *knew* what would happen so - being the free-will-allowing God that He is - God created a plan that, while still allowing free will, would make a way for man to be reunited with Him and for there to be total separation from good and evil.

The last paragraph probably would have made more sense if you read all of the comment so please read everything this time.

I read it all this time. =^___^=
But, I just wanted to re-post this. I replied to someone else in this thread and had this little blurb and scripture posted:

emocolossal636

This passage talks about how we, as Christians, were called before time began. Without Salvation, we would be lost, not Christians, and therefore God could not have called us. Therefore, Salvation must have also been planned before time began. It also states that God works out everything to conform to God's will and purpose. Therefore, man's fall, again, must have been in God's will:
Ephesians1:3-14 (NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

"...according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will..."

Unless you wish to say that not all of the Bible is God's Holy Word, that one segment of that passage proves that everything works toward his perfect will. If everything works together toward his perfect will (I say perfect will, because that is how it is described in various other places in the Bible), then why is the fall of man any exception? It cannot be, otherwise God's Word has become a lie.

Again, that is my belief. I understand that people may take that passage a bit differently, and maybe I am wrong, but that I cannot know until I'm in Heaven with Him.  

[On_Fire_4_CHRIST]

emocolossal636

Kyramud

Gotta ask something. Can anyone show me in the bible where they're pulling all this from? I see a bunch of arguments being made, but not a shred of evidence to support the claims. If there's scripture to support it, I'm all for it. But making carpet statements of beliefs/opinions without a shred of truth (i.e. the bible, since the bible =truth) behind it is, imo, worthless.

Also, the whole 'there can be no light without darkness, no good w/o evil' thing is an entirely humanistic view. There was good without evil. Take a look in your bible. You don't even have to dig that far, it's in the first book. God was abiding (maybe go look up a definition for the word 'abide'. It's a real eye opener) with man for who knows how long? Was there evil then? no... Was their relationship any less than the relationship we have with Him now?

Also, how is it that someone can make the claim that "No one can truly understand Him" or "We can't know God's plan" or something along those lines, and then proceed in the very same paragraph to try to tell someone else what God really meant? Seems a bit fishy to me, don't you agree confused

I'll show you what Biblical proof I can find at the moment. I was on my way to bed when I saw your post, but I'll post some scripture anyway. It's not all the references I could show. Just a few.

The entire book of Romans, really, is good in explaining sin and such. Get into it. smile
For all the things I mentioned, try the following passages:

This passage shows that the law was placed that sin might increase, but by doing so, grace would increase all the more. Either way, God is above all and in control of all:
Romans 5:20-21 (NIV)
The law was added so that the tresspass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This passage is about how God allows people to sin. It shows that man used God's creation to sin, although that was not the intention of the creation:
Romans 1:21-27 (NIV)
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error..

This passage talks about how we, as Christians, were called before time began. Without Salvation, we would be lost, not Christians, and therefore God could not have called us. Therefore, Salvation must have also been planned before time began. It also states that God works out everything to conform to God's will and purpose. Therefore, man's fall, again, must have been in God's will:
Ephesians1:3-14 (NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

I'll just take your quotes before the verses to make things more concise.

"This passage shows that the law was placed that sin might increase, but by doing so, grace would increase all the more. Either way, God is above all and in control of all"

I guess I can just use this....Romans 5:13 - for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. You need to be careful to: a)understand what the writer was saying not what today's people translate it as., b)remember to interpret a verse with the content around it, not just randomly pulling it out by itself and away from the point it was trying to get across. If you take a sentence out of an essay arguing against murder, you can find it supporting murder when that really wasn't the point in the first place. Anyway, back to Romans 5:13, sin already existed, but was not taken into account without the law. Once the law was revealed, sin distinguished it, it decided "let's go against the law."

"This passage is about how God allows people to sin. It shows that man used God's creation to sin, although that was not the intention of the creation"

Ok now you seem to be contradicting yourself. Are you saying God wanted sin to happen or didn't want sin to happen? Also, as I have said multiple times, allowing something to happen is not the same as willing it. Example: | You see your friend being beat to bits by a 500 lb bully who has muscles greater than the hulk and speed better than Jessie Owens. You don't want your friend to get hurt but you daren't interfere. Does the fact that you didn't help your friend mean you didn't want to help? Not at all. | Main point: God allowed sin to happen, yes. However, the sin-hating, fully perfect God could not want sin to happen.

"This passage talks about how we, as Christians, were called before time began. Without Salvation, we would be lost, not Christians, and therefore God could not have called us. Therefore, Salvation must have also been planned before time began. It also states that God works out everything to conform to God's will and purpose. Therefore, man's fall, again, must have been in God's will"

I would say this were good but one fact drops your argument: God's perfect plan is not His perfect will. Ephesians 1:11 - In Himswe were also chosen, having been predestined according to the PLAN of Him who WORKS OUT everything in conformity with the purpose of His will. Notice it didn't say anything about Him wanting man to fall. Again, don't go pulling Scripture out of context. Secondly, notice it says "plan" and "works out." God, again, *knew* that man would sin and in turn made a *plan* that would *work things out* and allow man to be once again united with HIm.


Conclusively, it's good that you read your Bible, but what good is it if you fail to interpret it correctly? Be careful to really understand what it's saying. Secondly, don't assume that someone hasn't read the Bible or a Book in the Bible just because they asked for proof. You could come across as offensive and ignorant.  

[On_Fire_4_CHRIST]

emocolossal636

On_Fire_4_CHRIST

emocolossal636

On_Fire_4_CHRIST

Now you're saying something different. Are you saying He willed for man to fall or that He knew that man would fall? They are 2 very different things. Omniscient does not mean willing for something to happen. There was an example some guy used. I don't remember all of it, or who it was but I'll say what I remember.

"I can leave a cookie on the kitchen counter and leave, knowing that when he comes in he will eat the cookie. Nothing I did affected how he made the decision to eat the cookie, but I knew he was going to eat it anyway."

Something like that. But yeah. Omniscience is not will.

Also, by saying there would be no need for the Savior is still saying that there would be no need for Jesus, because Jesus is the Savior. Now if you're saying there would be no need for anyone to save man, who cares? God saved man, which was and is nothing. Why should anyone bother saving man in the first place? And God could have refused to create man if He willed. So using the logic that God willed for man to fall into sin because otherwise there would be no need for the Savior doesn't work. God could have a) decided not to create man, and b) decided not to save man.

In addition, you said that "We cannot see God's Plan. So therefore we cannot concretely say that we know what was and what wasn't a part of His plan." Yet you said "Also, if God did not will for Man to fall, a)He wouldn't have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden..." (it was not the garden of evil, but the garden of eden). You cannot say that God put the tree there for man to fall. First off, it's in James that God does not and cannot tempt anyone. So we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone. We know that God absolutely despises sin. It's all over the Bible, whether direct or indirect. It would be hypocritical and contradictory for God to make sure man fell and then punish them for something He knew/willed to happen. God, again, cannot contradict Himself. If He did, He wouldn't be God; He wouldn't be perfect. We certainly know that the God who hates man could not have willed for man to fall.

Uhm.. I know this is prolly gonna start some huge heated discussion, but I felt I had to kindof butt-in.
First off, let me admit I only read the last paragraph of your post, so I will only point out what I see as incorrect from that, and I'll try to go in order so as to not confuse myself, much less anyone else.

Quote:

You cannot say that God put the tree there for man to fall. First off, it's in James that God does not and cannot tempt anyone. So we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone.

You're correct in saying that God cannot tempt anyone. That, of course, would be correct since you did take that straight from the Bible. However, saying that "we definitely know that God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden for man to fall, because He cannot tempt anyone" is entirely incorrect.
God is all-knowing, and God knew that, if Adam and Eve were to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, their eyes would be opened. Not just physically, but spiritually. This is proved when they did eat of the tree and became ashamed of being naked, and they also knew they had done wrong because they hid from God.
However, by God creating that tree and placing it there knowing they would eat of the tree is not the same as God tempting them. God creates things that man can sin by. He creates the prostitute, the drug dealer, the murderer. But he doesn't create the sin. Sin is a human choice that is created from the Devil himself. To say that God wouldn't put the tree in the garden for man to fall because God tempts no man would be the same as saying God doesn't create anything that can cause sin. There is no way for that to be true.
And the reason God put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden, knowing they would fall, is because, from before time, God had planned out that his Son, Jesus, would come to Earth and offer Salvation to all of us who would but believe. If it weren't for the tree, Salvation would be unnecessary. If it weren't for Salvation, we would be unable to have an honest relationship with God.

Quote:

We know that God absolutely despises sin. It's all over the Bible, whether direct or indirect. It would be hypocritical and contradictory for God to make sure man fell and then punish them for something He knew/willed to happen. God, again, cannot contradict Himself. If He did, He wouldn't be God; He wouldn't be perfect. We certainly know that the God who hates man could not have willed for man to fall.

It is true, God hates sin. Sin is complete and willful opposition to God, so why wouldn't he hate it? However, as I stated before, God willed for his son to come to Earth, die, and give us a way to have a right relationship with him before time. In order for that to happen, man had to sin. When Jesus was on the cross, God had to turn his face away from Jesus because there was so much sin there. There's proof that he hates sin. In fact, God can't even stand to be around sin. But, as I said, God must have willed for the fall of man in order to bring us Salvation and a chance at a right relationship with God.
God never contradicts himself. That is true. That is why "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin" makes perfect sense. Jesus poured out his blood for our sins. The Father gave up his Son, the spotless Lamb of God, as a sacrifice to atone for our sins so that we could fellowship with God in heaven.
And since when did God hate man? If God hated man, why would he have created man? If God hates man, why would he have sent his son to die for man's sins?


Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing.

I'm going to try to make this concise because....yeah. I'm too tired to write paragraphs. So let's see um.....first off. The God hates mane thing was a TOTAL ERROR! LOL! I meant to say sin! xd

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that since God is all-knowing, everything must've gone according to His will. I wouldn't say that's so. The one thing that I believe many fail to understand is that there is a difference between a perfect will and a perfect plan. Since God hates sin, it would be 100% contradictory for God to want sin to happen. It's simple. One says "I hate sin," says Bob. *5 hours later* "You should sin!" shouts Bob. "Way to go hypocrite, replies Larry." And since God cannot contradict Himself, He could not have wanted man to sin.

Back to my statement "the one thing that I believe many fail to understand is that there is a difference between a perfect will and a perfect plan. God *wanted* man to be obedient, but *knowing* what would happen, He created a *plan* to fix things. I hope that makes sense, I can't really think of the best example right now. "Well if you say that, why didn't He just keep the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil out of the Garden of Eden?" Well, He does allow free will, doesn't He? He knew that if He did things regularly without interference, man would sin. However, He lets people make their own decisions. Taking the tree out of the picture would in turn reshape man's decisions by eliminating the thing that would cause them to sin. Whether indirect or direct, He would be changing man's decision. Deuteronomy 30:19 - This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live. Again, God allows free will, so yeah.

Summary: 1)To want something, but to create something that would knowingly form an unfavorable result is clearly contradictory just by definition. God could not have wanted something to happen that would go against His will and nature, nor create something that would knowingly go against His will and nature. 2)God *knew* what would happen so - being the free-will-allowing God that He is - God created a plan that, while still allowing free will, would make a way for man to be reunited with Him and for there to be total separation from good and evil.

The last paragraph probably would have made more sense if you read all of the comment so please read everything this time.

I read it all this time. =^___^=
But, I just wanted to re-post this. I replied to someone else in this thread and had this little blurb and scripture posted:

emocolossal636

This passage talks about how we, as Christians, were called before time began. Without Salvation, we would be lost, not Christians, and therefore God could not have called us. Therefore, Salvation must have also been planned before time began. It also states that God works out everything to conform to God's will and purpose. Therefore, man's fall, again, must have been in God's will:
Ephesians1:3-14 (NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

"...according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will..."

Unless you wish to say that not all of the Bible is God's Holy Word, that one segment of that passage proves that everything works toward his perfect will. If everything works together toward his perfect will (I say perfect will, because that is how it is described in various other places in the Bible), then why is the fall of man any exception? It cannot be, otherwise God's Word has become a lie.

Again, that is my belief. I understand that people may take that passage a bit differently, and maybe I am wrong, but that I cannot know until I'm in Heaven with Him.

Or you can know right now. You're taking the passage, as I said earlier, completely out of context. And even worse (and not to sound bashing-ish) you've taken a part of the verse out of a verse, making it more skewed than before. It says that...let me just put the entire verse there. Ephesians 1:11 - In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will. Notice that "plan" and "works out" were put as "plan" and "works out" rather than "will." Working things in conformity with someone's will is doing something according to your will. God willed for man to be united with Him and for there to be no sin. Unfortunately, man sinned and was separated from God. So He *worked out* a plan that was in conformity with His will, meaning it agreed with His will instead of contradicting it. The plan allowed man to be united with God and for man's sins to be forgiven. Plan is not the same as will, as I have said in many of my comments.  

[__MochaNeko__TM__]

On_Fire_4_CHRIST

emocolossal636

On_Fire_4_CHRIST

I'm going to try to make this concise because....yeah. I'm too tired to write paragraphs. So let's see um.....first off. The God hates mane thing was a TOTAL ERROR! LOL! I meant to say sin! xd

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that since God is all-knowing, everything must've gone according to His will. I wouldn't say that's so. The one thing that I believe many fail to understand is that there is a difference between a perfect will and a perfect plan. Since God hates sin, it would be 100% contradictory for God to want sin to happen. It's simple. One says "I hate sin," says Bob. *5 hours later* "You should sin!" shouts Bob. "Way to go hypocrite, replies Larry." And since God cannot contradict Himself, He could not have wanted man to sin.

Back to my statement "the one thing that I believe many fail to understand is that there is a difference between a perfect will and a perfect plan. God *wanted* man to be obedient, but *knowing* what would happen, He created a *plan* to fix things. I hope that makes sense, I can't really think of the best example right now. "Well if you say that, why didn't He just keep the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil out of the Garden of Eden?" Well, He does allow free will, doesn't He? He knew that if He did things regularly without interference, man would sin. However, He lets people make their own decisions. Taking the tree out of the picture would in turn reshape man's decisions by eliminating the thing that would cause them to sin. Whether indirect or direct, He would be changing man's decision. Deuteronomy 30:19 - This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live. Again, God allows free will, so yeah.

Summary: 1)To want something, but to create something that would knowingly form an unfavorable result is clearly contradictory just by definition. God could not have wanted something to happen that would go against His will and nature, nor create something that would knowingly go against His will and nature. 2)God *knew* what would happen so - being the free-will-allowing God that He is - God created a plan that, while still allowing free will, would make a way for man to be reunited with Him and for there to be total separation from good and evil.

The last paragraph probably would have made more sense if you read all of the comment so please read everything this time.

I read it all this time. =^___^=
But, I just wanted to re-post this. I replied to someone else in this thread and had this little blurb and scripture posted:

emocolossal636

This passage talks about how we, as Christians, were called before time began. Without Salvation, we would be lost, not Christians, and therefore God could not have called us. Therefore, Salvation must have also been planned before time began. It also states that God works out everything to conform to God's will and purpose. Therefore, man's fall, again, must have been in God's will:
Ephesians1:3-14 (NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

"...according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will..."

Unless you wish to say that not all of the Bible is God's Holy Word, that one segment of that passage proves that everything works toward his perfect will. If everything works together toward his perfect will (I say perfect will, because that is how it is described in various other places in the Bible), then why is the fall of man any exception? It cannot be, otherwise God's Word has become a lie.

Again, that is my belief. I understand that people may take that passage a bit differently, and maybe I am wrong, but that I cannot know until I'm in Heaven with Him.

Or you can know right now. You're taking the passage, as I said earlier, completely out of context. And even worse (and not to sound bashing-ish) you've taken a part of the verse out of a verse, making it more skewed than before. It says that...let me just put the entire verse there. Ephesians 1:11 - In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will. Notice that "plan" and "works out" were put as "plan" and "works out" rather than "will." Working things in conformity with someone's will is doing something according to your will. God willed for man to be united with Him and for there to be no sin. Unfortunately, man sinned and was separated from God. So He *worked out* a plan that was in conformity with His will, meaning it agreed with His will instead of contradicting it. The plan allowed man to be united with God and for man's sins to be forgiven. Plan is not the same as will, as I have said in many of my comments.

Ahh.. That makes a bit more sense.. And It wasn't my intention to take the verse out of context. sweatdrop Sorry.
Of course, my mind won't change so quickly, but I see what you mean. It seems like it could be right.  

[__MochaNeko__TM__]

Quote:

"This passage is about how God allows people to sin. It shows that man used God's creation to sin, although that was not the intention of the creation"

Ok now you seem to be contradicting yourself. Are you saying God wanted sin to happen or didn't want sin to happen? Also, as I have said multiple times, allowing something to happen is not the same as willing it. Example: | You see your friend being beat to bits by a 500 lb bully who has muscles greater than the hulk and speed better than Jessie Owens. You don't want your friend to get hurt but you daren't interfere. Does the fact that you didn't help your friend mean you didn't want to help? Not at all. | Main point: God allowed sin to happen, yes. However, the sin-hating, fully perfect God could not want sin to happen.

I wasn't contradicting myself there. Personally, I think to want and to will are two different things, which could be where some of this argument comes from. I think of will more as plan, and that want and will aren't the same. In that case, I never said God wanted sin to happen, just that it was part of his plan.
Hopefully that explains it a little better.. Assuming I got it right..
Now I'm confusing myself.. gonk (that happens a lot irl, not just with Bible stuff..)


And, honestly, I never mean to come across as offensive in any way. I'm really sorry if I do. :/  

[Robotic Chewie19]

Saint of Eight

What I was asking is that why didn't Adam die the day he ate the fruit?

He did die but it was a spiritual death and not a physical one before he ate from the tree he walked hand in hand with God in the Garden of Eden but after God cast him out of Eden