Just thought I Would Ask...

[Azkeel]

Gregar828

Alright, now let me correct YOU. This thread is not "What makes a christian good", its "What makes a good christian." And acting with moral principles and kindness in a way that would make god give you a high five, and being genuinely sorry and asking forgiveness when you dont act that way, is how to be a good christian. And you're absolutely right, man did not create good. But man is the one who uses either good or evil in this world.

Humans have something called Judgment and Common Sense. That's how I can tell good from bad. My agnostic friend can tell that stealing is bad, even though he does not accept god (fully, at least, but I'm not really at liberty to share his personal story). And whaddya know, god said that stealing is wrong, making the choice to not steal the right choice. So that means (brace yourself) that even though he did not accept god, he made the right choice! Now I'm not saying that he will get into heaven if he keeps rejecting God, I'm saying that humans can tell right from wrong with common sense.

Yes, god gave us the guidelines for what is right and what is wrong. Now then, who exercises those choices of right or wrong? HUMANS. Just because a person has been shown what is good and what is evil, does not mean he will make the good choice. On the opposite spectrum, Just because a person has not been specifically shown what the good or bad choice is, doesn't mean that he will make the bad choice.

So far, this has been what I've gotten from your argument: Just because we wouldn't know the difference between right and wrong guarantees that we will make the wrong choice. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted what you are trying to say.

And I'm sorry to break this to you, but even now, even for the people who have accepted god, they are still sinners. Accepting god does not make you immune to sin, it grants you forgiveness for past, present, and future sins (provided that you are truly sorry when asking for forgiveness).

Could you use scripture to back your claims up? If you'd be so kind.  

[Gregar828]

Azkeel, though I have been trying to stress the fact that humans are able to think for themselves, and resorting to biblical quotes as your ultimate defense in an argument goes against that, I will humor you.

Note: whenever a "/" mark appears in the middle of the text, it is indicating the separation between the lines.

'In those days they shall no longer say "The fathers ate unripe grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge,"/But through his own fault only shall anyone die: The teeth of him who eats the unripe grapes shall be set on edge.' (Jeremiah 31: 29-30)

'Whoever chooses to do his will shall know whether my teaching is from god or whether I speak on my own.' (John 7:17)

'For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.' (2 Corinthians 5:10)

'Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.' (Revelation 22:12)

'Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; only for his own guilt shall a man be put to death.' (Deuteronomy 24:16)

'Now the lord is spirit, and where the spirit of the lord is, there is freedom.' (2 Corinthians 3:17)

Is that enough, or do you want more?  

[Nalyd Rin Dei la Rune]

Er, not going to actually get into this, and I've only skimmed what has been said and have not read your previous post (Gregar), but just say'n:

Quote:

Azkeel, though I have been trying to stress the fact that humans are able to think for themselves, and resorting to biblical quotes as your ultimate defense in an argument goes against that, I will humor you.

A. Azkeel didn't say 'because you haven't given scripture everything you say is meaningless HA!'
He was just asking that you give a basis for which your words might be considered more than mere opinion.

B. The indigo portion of my sig. Now, before sighing at me please read the rest of this post.

True, humans do have the capacity to think for ourselves.
True, we absolutely should.
However, if one's thoughts or opinions are counter intuitive to what the Bible teaches, then it is wrong. Simple as that.
When putting together a thesis paper, you write everything in your own words, but give references to validate your claims. This could be in the form of results from experiments one completes, the words of authorities on the subject in question, or quotes and information gained from texts that contain reliable information on the subject.
In short, you include a bibliography. It is not that referencing the Bible somehow makes one lesser in their thoughts and opinions, if anything it makes them greater. (So long as they're not just spouting scripture without any application to what is being discussed of course.)

If ones opinions can be supported or denied by the Word of God, then referencing it should be encouraged.

Again, this is purely directed to what you said about quoting the Bible, I don't even know what was said for two or three posts before this.  

[Gregar828]

I suppose I acted the way I did about quoting the bible because I normally don't use biblical phrases to argue for me, but you make a good point. I'll keep that in mind.

And to address one particular part of your post: No, nothing I am saying is trying to (intentionally) go against scripture.  

[Icy Cult]

Well, in my opinion we shouldn't ask ourselves if we're good Christians, but let other people judge us. I know that sounds weird, but i mean we shouldn't go around yelling out "IM A GOOD CHRISTIAN!!!" But instead, we should let others decide if we are through our actions! Walk the walk and stop talking the talk.

Another thing, back in the days, the Israelites (I THINK...I am not exactly sure, because my friend has told me this a lot of times and i never really read it myself Dx Dont hate please, lol) were called Christians by the Pharisees (Again, i think it was the Pharisees) because they acted like followers of Christ!  

[Gregar828]

That's an interesting point. We can all say what we think is a good christian, but usually when we SEE a good christian, we know. So maybe a good christian cannot be defined by words, but by actions.  

[On_Fire_4_CHRIST]

VK Fox

I think the question that first needs to be answered in "What makes a person a Christian?" Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one.

After the dust from that settles, we can answer the original question. You either are Christian, or you are not. No one of us is better than any other of our brothers and sisters. Yes, we all have different roles in the body of Christ, but a body without a lung or a kidney is in pretty sad shape.

That was actually an awesome way of looking at things...never thought of that...  

[Azkeel]

Yes remember how to become a Christian is to also repent. So if you are a Christian the only good in you is from our Lord because you did turn from sin thus the Lord can shine through you. It's not hard to repent really satan just wants you to think it is. Not to mention we are under constant attack by temptation, T.V. internet if you start surfing in the wrong areas, but remember we are to FLEE from temptation. Doesn't tell us to try and fight it or play with it. We are told to run away! (I was thinking Montey Python and the Holy Grail "Run away!" scene) So if the T.V. has a comercial that get's you thinking the wrong thing simply change the channel. Same with music. If you're an alcoholic you don't go to a bar and try and be strong. You just don't go.  

[kdke]

Azkeel

Yes remember how to become a Christian is to also repent. So if you are a Christian the only good in you is from our Lord because you did turn from sin thus the Lord can shine through you. It's not hard to repent really satan just wants you to think it is. Not to mention we are under constant attack by temptation, T.V. internet if you start surfing in the wrong areas, but remember we are to FLEE from temptation. Doesn't tell us to try and fight it or play with it. We are told to run away! (I was thinking Montey Python and the Holy Grail "Run away!" scene) So if the T.V. has a comercial that get's you thinking the wrong thing simply change the channel. Same with music. If you're an alcoholic you don't go to a bar and try and be strong. You just don't go.

Repentance is a very important part of being a Christian. I've stressed
that a good amount of times on my own in my other guilds. The reason I
have is because there are many people who don't repent. They have this
idea that being saved by grace alone means they don't have to make an
effort other than just saying "Yes, I believe in Jesus." Not so. Even
Jesus, our Master, said he came to call sinners to repentance. Paul
described salvation like this:

For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without
regret...
2 Corinthians 7:10

Jesus also said to practice repentance (Matthew 3:8 ). How do we
practice repentance? We repent over and over again, right? We repent
every time we have godly grief towards our sins. Repentance doesn't just
happen once in our lives as believers; it's a practice, and I believe those
who are close to godliness practice true repentance every day, because
they are the ones who are always relying on God. They are always aware
of themselves, and even when they think they have not sinned, they pray
for deliverance, knowing their own imperfection compared to God's
perfection.  

[On_Fire_4_CHRIST]

Gregar828

Alright, now let me correct YOU. This thread is not "What makes a christian good", its "What makes a good christian." And acting with moral principles and kindness in a way that would make god give you a high five, and being genuinely sorry and asking forgiveness when you dont act that way, is how to be a good christian. And you're absolutely right, man did not create good. But man is the one who uses either good or evil in this world.

Humans have something called Judgment and Common Sense. That's how I can tell good from bad. My agnostic friend can tell that stealing is bad, even though he does not accept god (fully, at least, but I'm not really at liberty to share his personal story). And whaddya know, god said that stealing is wrong, making the choice to not steal the right choice. So that means (brace yourself) that even though he did not accept god, he made the right choice! Now I'm not saying that he will get into heaven if he keeps rejecting God, I'm saying that humans can tell right from wrong with common sense.

Yes, god gave us the guidelines for what is right and what is wrong. Now then, who exercises those choices of right or wrong? HUMANS. Just because a person has been shown what is good and what is evil, does not mean he will make the good choice. On the opposite spectrum, Just because a person has not been specifically shown what the good or bad choice is, doesn't mean that he will make the bad choice.

So far, this has been what I've gotten from your argument: Just because we wouldn't know the difference between right and wrong guarantees that we will make the wrong choice. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted what you are trying to say.

And I'm sorry to break this to you, but even now, even for the people who have accepted god, they are still sinners. Accepting god does not make you immune to sin, it grants you forgiveness for past, present, and future sins (provided that you are truly sorry when asking for forgiveness).

No, that's not it at all. Perhaps the information I gave to support my argument confused you.

I am saying that either way, only God can make us good. Because:

1) If you aren't saved and you do good things, God is the one who passed down His instructions through other humans.
1.a) If you aren't saved, you have not been forgiven and all the bad things you have done cling to you and make you a bad person (according to God, not what man assumes).

Colossians 1:21-22

21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation -23...

Luke 13:3

"I tell you, no! Unless you repent, you too will all perish."

There is no way you can be a good person if you're an enemy of God and if your sins haven't been forgiven.

2) God is the One who has saved us. He is the One who has washed away our sin and made us clean in His sight. If He hadn't, we wouldn't be cleansed and therefore wouldn't be good people. And God is the One who does work in our lives to make us good.  

[On_Fire_4_CHRIST]

And in reference to using the Bible, as Azkeel was talking about, you should do that. I was in a discussion with a strong Christian girl who had lots of Bible verses to back up her argument. I didn't have any. She said that I needed to use Bible verses to back up what I was saying. I mean think about it, how can we, as Christians not use the Bible to back up what we say? Where does our instruction from? God and His Word! So how can we argue something that doesn't have God's Word in our argument?

If you can't use God's Word to support your argument, you really don't have a basis to argue on. After all, man's opinions don't matter at all, God's truths do.  

[Gregar828]

If a person does not believe in god, they will go to hell. Yes, that is correct. However, just because a person does not believe in god. Look at the Dalai Lama, possibly the most peaceful man on earth. He doesn't believe in god, but I would most definitely consider him a good person. Yes, he would still go to hell, but he's one of the world's symbols of peace and love. I'm fairly certain that the only thing holding back god from giving him a high five is, well, the fact that he doesn't believe. Point is, you CAN be a good person without believing in god, based on the choices YOU make. And trust me, not all the choices are evil.

And you've been talking quite a bit about how accepting god cleanses your sins. While this is true, think about this: what about the sins that come AFTER accepting god. Those don't just go away, they will also "cling to you and make you a bad person," as you put it. We all have plenty of sin. You have it, I have it, the Dalai Lama has it, the Pope has it (though he goes to confession every day, so he might as well be a clean slate most of the time), various other church leaders have it, and everyone else has it. That doesn't mean they're necessarily bad people.

And, in case you didnt see it, I did post a few verses which I base my argument on. I just feel that using those in every other post is kind of like saying "I'm going to let the bible fight for me, rather than responding."  

[On_Fire_4_CHRIST]

Gregar828

If a person does not believe in god, they will go to hell. Yes, that is correct. However, just because a person does not believe in god. Look at the Dalai Lama, possibly the most peaceful man on earth. He doesn't believe in god, but I would most definitely consider him a good person. Yes, he would still go to hell, but he's one of the world's symbols of peace and love. I'm fairly certain that the only thing holding back god from giving him a high five is, well, the fact that he doesn't believe. Point is, you CAN be a good person without believing in god, based on the choices YOU make. And trust me, not all the choices are evil.

And you've been talking quite a bit about how accepting god cleanses your sins. While this is true, think about this: what about the sins that come AFTER accepting god. Those don't just go away, they will also "cling to you and make you a bad person," as you put it. We all have plenty of sin. You have it, I have it, the Dalai Lama has it, the Pope has it (though he goes to confession every day, so he might as well be a clean slate most of the time), various other church leaders have it, and everyone else has it. That doesn't mean they're necessarily bad people.

And, in case you didnt see it, I did post a few verses which I base my argument on. I just feel that using those in every other post is kind of like saying "I'm going to let the bible fight for me, rather than responding."

Works alone do not make you good. You have to get out of the human perspective and into Biblical.

2nd, you are wrong.

I John 1:9

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all untrighteousness.

Psalm 103:12

As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.

If we repent, He throws those sins away, He doesn't keep them against you. And keep in mind that the Bible is for Christians, not the non-believers so these verses do not apply to people who have not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior of their life.

3rd. If you're a Christian, having a CHRISTIAN argument in a CHRISTIAN guild, you MUST use the Bible. Otherwise you have NO FOUNDATION and you might as well not argue.

Perfect Example: You said that after you're saved, the sins aferwards cling to you. And guess what? I easily through that invalid thought out the window with the Bible, GOD'S Holy Word. I don't mean this as an offense but for a person who loves to call people ignorant (like when you called Azkeel ignorant) do you read the Bible more? It doesn't look like it.

Also the Bible verses I saw just referred to parents...not actions making you good people.

Lastly you should be glad to have Bible verses fight for you. It's God's Word and you're a Christian. It's better than letting foolish human views fight for you. They're useless if God thinks otherwise. That's why you need God's Word. If you don't have Bible verses, the truly spiritual people definitely won't believe you. I know. You NEED to use the Bible in your arguments.  

[Gregar828]

First off, please, use correct grammar. Half of these posts are absolute train wrecks to read.

Onto the actual argument:

Alright, lets address the topic of sin. That bible quote does say that he will rid us of our sin if we accept him. But that is the sin that we have committed before accepting god, which is supposedly the sin we committed when we did not know any better, because we would not have known god. And for the sins we commit afterward (because accepting god does NOT make us perfect beings, we still sin), we have confession. By your logic, if someone who has accepted god kills twenty-five people, that person is still cleansed of all sin. Please, Please, PLEASE tell me that this is not what you're saying, because that is so very, very wrong. Because only a recently escaped mental ward patient would say that yes, a hardened criminal who kills after accepting god is with out sin, I will assume that was NOT what you were saying, and therefore, the bolded part of your phrase does not disprove my argument.

As for my bible phrases, yes they may have the word parents in them. Did you try looking for the MEANING in them? A bible phrase can almost be compared to a proverb, in that they teach lessons that go beyond the words they present. So one that has the word "parents" in it may not necessarily be about parents. We're called the Lamb of God, but last time I checked, I'm not a sheep.

Because based on that sentence about all my bible prhases having to do with parent, it seems like you dont understand what it is they are sayingLets use one of the one's I presented.

'For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.' (2 Corinthians 5:10)

In plain English, this phrase says that we all must be judged by Christ one day, referring to the day we die. Here we will receive our recompense, referring to whether we pass into heaven or hell, according to what we did in the body, be it good or evil, which states that we are judged by our good and bad actions. So yes, while good works ALONE do not make you a good person, they play a major factor in making you a good person.

That, and there's fact that only two of the six even mention a parent within them, so I don't know where you get off at saying all of them are about parents. Unless you simply skimmed them over, not bothering with them in case I made a valid point with them, ehh?

As for the rest of the argument..............actually, I have nothing else to post for the rest of your argument, because you don't HAVE another part of your argument. You spent a good two thirds of the post complaining that I need biblical phrases, when I ALREADY PROVIDED biblical phrases. I'm sorry if I don't like to fill my posts with biblical phrases, but I believe that there are enough there to last me the rest of this debate.

And I have read the bible, and I've begun rereading it. I don't want to throw biblical quotes in people's face all the time because I like to form my own arguments, using the bible as reference, but not as my direct tool for arguing, and its kind of like saying "I cant form my own argument, I'll let this one do it for me."  

[On_Fire_4_CHRIST]

Gregar828

First off, please, use correct grammar. Half of these posts are absolute train wrecks to read.

Onto the actual argument:

Alright, lets address the topic of sin. That bible quote does say that he will rid us of our sin if we accept him. But that is the sin that we have committed before accepting god, which is supposedly the sin we committed when we did not know any better, because we would not have known god. And for the sins we commit afterward (because accepting god does NOT make us perfect beings, we still sin), we have confession. By your logic, if someone who has accepted god kills twenty-five people, that person is still cleansed of all sin. Please, Please, PLEASE tell me that this is not what you're saying, because that is so very, very wrong. Because only a recently escaped mental ward patient would say that yes, a hardened criminal who kills after accepting god is with out sin, I will assume that was NOT what you were saying, and therefore, the bolded part of your phrase does not disprove my argument.

As for my bible phrases, yes they may have the word parents in them. Did you try looking for the MEANING in them? A bible phrase can almost be compared to a proverb, in that they teach lessons that go beyond the words they present. So one that has the word "parents" in it may not necessarily be about parents. We're called the Lamb of God, but last time I checked, I'm not a sheep.

Because based on that sentence about all my bible prhases having to do with parent, it seems like you dont understand what it is they are sayingLets use one of the one's I presented.

'For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.' (2 Corinthians 5:10)

In plain English, this phrase says that we all must be judged by Christ one day, referring to the day we die. Here we will receive our recompense, referring to whether we pass into heaven or hell, according to what we did in the body, be it good or evil, which states that we are judged by our good and bad actions. So yes, while good works ALONE do not make you a good person, they play a major factor in making you a good person.

That, and there's fact that only two of the six even mention a parent within them, so I don't know where you get off at saying all of them are about parents. Unless you simply skimmed them over, not bothering with them in case I made a valid point with them, ehh?

As for the rest of the argument..............actually, I have nothing else to post for the rest of your argument, because you don't HAVE another part of your argument. You spent a good two thirds of the post complaining that I need biblical phrases, when I ALREADY PROVIDED biblical phrases. I'm sorry if I don't like to fill my posts with biblical phrases, but I believe that there are enough there to last me the rest of this debate.

And I have read the bible, and I've begun rereading it. I don't want to throw biblical quotes in people's face all the time because I like to form my own arguments, using the bible as reference, but not as my direct tool for arguing, and its kind of like saying "I cant form my own argument, I'll let this one do it for me."

First off, I think you have a serious issue. Nothing is wrong with having a few grammar errors and there's no real point in saying "correct your grammer." We aren't saying yo's and bout's and using words that are incomplete and everyone reads them just fine.

Notice the verse did not say "accept." It said that if we confess our sins He will forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. There's no interpretation required there. It's in plain English itself. But we have to repent and not just say "Oh, I'm sorry" and do the same thing we were doing in the first place. And we are not the "Lamb of God." That is Jesus.

Works don't make you a good person. Just because you are judged based on your actions does not mean that you're a good person when you do more good things. It means you are rewarded for that which you have done right, and punished for that which you have done wrong. However, God is the One who makes you good and gives you the strength to do good.

I will admit that I skimmed through the verses. The way you started the comment seemed like the ignorant kind of "You want this? Then I'll give it to you!" kind of thing. So yup. I'm guilty. LOL!!!

Lastly, the Bible should fight for you. It doesn't make you a whimp or a person that can't make their own argument. Human opinions do not matter when comparing them with God. So it would be in your best interest to use the Bible when trying to form an argument. Otherwise a good portion of people won't listen to your argument very much. Why make an argument on your own anyway? Why not use God's Word for help? Have you ever asked yourself that? Is it a pride issue? From my perspective it seems that way.