I believe in god, but this christ stuff doesn't add up.

[animeisawesome12]

Shadows-shine

animeisawesome12

Shadows-shine

Siimple Servant

You're reading the WRONG stuff my friend.

Me?

I think he means the 'first humans discovered in Tanzania' thing?

Ah...okay. sweatdrop I wasn't sure because it showed as though he was quoting me in my notifcations.

Your confusion is understood. 3nodding xd  

[Br1ttana]

Siimple Servant

Think about it this way, God KNEW us before HE created the entire UNIVERSE. He was probably testing Eve as He does to us today, and when Eve ate that apple, God already had another plan for us and that plan was to send Jesus Christ FOR US. We won't be able to understand God and His holiness - our minds cannot fathom it. And if you're doubting God, take those up to Him. He can control anything and everything.

The Lord doesn't tempt us! If I could find the stinkin' thread that went over this I'd link you to it, but the Lord doesn't tempt us! :/  

[Br1ttana]

A Fallen Temstar

but I don't see him as this big strict person thats forcing us to worship him and scaring us half to death.

He's not a big strict person who's forcing us to worship him by scaring us to death. That would go against the whole free will thing.

If you sin/do something wrong then there will be a consequence to that sin. Also, if you do not repent of your sin, you will be punished, not to force you into believing in him, but because that is what a good parent or judge does.

Ex: Child steals cookie from the cookie jar, parent says "That was very bad. Stealing the cookie after I told you not to. But go ahead while I go back to watching 'The View' ", child is left thinking it's ok to do whatever they want including stealing a cookie because they were not punished for what they did. Later in the future, because they were not punished (which teaches us right from wrong), this could cause many problems for the child. Continually acts out, doesn't get a job, tries stealing food, goes to jail. Then a judge says "Eh, whatever. Let him go.", with the person still not being punished and learning from his punishment leading to the person's life probably being worse.

When the Lord punishes us, it's to teach us and get us back on the right track so that we can have a good and happy life. Not one that leads to nothing but unhappiness, pain, loneliness.

Also, I have to ask. Have you read the Bible at all before?

And to the first human remains, how do you know they were the first humans? And even if it was Adam and Eve (which I personally highly doubt), as Shadows said they "didn't remain in the Garden after the fall, who knows how far they wandered or traveled in their life times, not to mention where all their children had traveled to."  

[Kozmog]

Well what about repenting? Its like saying I can commit a crime but I won't go to hell because I went to church and said sorry.

And why would god send homosexuals to hell? Some of them were born that way its not their fault.

If he created everything, why would he create the Devil in the first place?  

[Kyramud]

A Fallen Temstar

Well what about repenting? Its like saying I can commit a crime but I won't go to hell because I went to church and said sorry.

And why would god send homosexuals to hell? Some of them were born that way its not their fault.

If he created everything, why would he create the Devil in the first place?

1. True repentance gets you right with God and deals with the eternal consequences of your actions, but even if you truly repentant you still have to deal with the physical consequences of your actions. False repentance, on the other hand, doesn't fly with God.

2. God doesn't send homosexuals to hell. Homosexuals send homosexuals to hell. Our actions and choices are ours to make, just as the consequences are ours to receive.

3. He did create everything, you are correct, but He didn't 'create the Devil'. Lucifer made a choice, just as all angels have, and all humans will eventually, and he will reap his just rewards. Satan's sole goal in life now is to drag as many people with him as he can. And, unfortunately, he's been doing an awesome job of it.  

[Kozmog]

Kyramud

A Fallen Temstar

Well what about repenting? Its like saying I can commit a crime but I won't go to hell because I went to church and said sorry.

And why would god send homosexuals to hell? Some of them were born that way its not their fault.

If he created everything, why would he create the Devil in the first place?

1. True repentance gets you right with God and deals with the eternal consequences of your actions, but even if you truly repentant you still have to deal with the physical consequences of your actions. False repentance, on the other hand, doesn't fly with God.

2. God doesn't send homosexuals to hell. Homosexuals send homosexuals to hell. Our actions and choices are ours to make, just as the consequences are ours to receive.

3. He did create everything, you are correct, but He didn't 'create the Devil'. Lucifer made a choice, just as all angels have, and all humans will eventually, and he will reap his just rewards. Satan's sole goal in life now is to drag as many people with him as he can. And, unfortunately, he's been doing an awesome job of it.

Hmm I see. But lets get back to number 2. God made everything, so he made gays too. Not all of them made the choice, some were born that way. You can't force people to deprogram their personality. So you might as well say God sends his own people to hell for no reason. Your God is cruel.

This is why I don't follow the bible. Its written by man and can be misinterpreted by man. And since theirs many versions (Such as the King James Version), how do you know they didn't throw stuff in there for themselves?  

[Br1ttana]

A Fallen Temstar

Kyramud

A Fallen Temstar

Well what about repenting? Its like saying I can commit a crime but I won't go to hell because I went to church and said sorry.

And why would god send homosexuals to hell? Some of them were born that way its not their fault.

If he created everything, why would he create the Devil in the first place?

1. True repentance gets you right with God and deals with the eternal consequences of your actions, but even if you truly repentant you still have to deal with the physical consequences of your actions. False repentance, on the other hand, doesn't fly with God.

2. God doesn't send homosexuals to hell. Homosexuals send homosexuals to hell. Our actions and choices are ours to make, just as the consequences are ours to receive.

3. He did create everything, you are correct, but He didn't 'create the Devil'. Lucifer made a choice, just as all angels have, and all humans will eventually, and he will reap his just rewards. Satan's sole goal in life now is to drag as many people with him as he can. And, unfortunately, he's been doing an awesome job of it.

Hmm I see. But lets get back to number 2. God made everything, so he made gays too. Not all of them made the choice, some were born that way. You can't force people to deprogram their personality. So you might as well say God sends his own people to hell for no reason. Your God is cruel.

This is why I don't follow the bible. Its written by man and can be misinterpreted by man. And since theirs many versions (Such as the King James Version), how do you know they didn't throw stuff in there for themselves?

The Lord doesn't send homosexuals to hell for being homosexuals. 1st of all because the Lord doesn't send anyone to hell we kind of send our selves there. He loves us and doesn't want us in hell which is why he punishes us, to keep us on the right track to avoid that place.

2nd, homosexuality is not a sin. Just as 'sleeping' with the opposite sex before married is a sin, 'sleeping' with the same sex is. There can be homosexual Christians, they just ask the Lord to help them avoid their sexual tendacies and are very happy.

3rd, those who go to hell do not go there because of who they were or who they liked. They go because of their sins and not repenting of them, because they think they're fine, perfect, and feel no need to.  

[Rednal]

*Sips tea* I think people like to overcomplicate issues like this sometimes. Christian doctrine notes that all humans are sinners. We simply tend to be sinners in many different ways. Lie, steal, kill, and so on and so forth. Not every sinner is a murderer, not every sinner is gay, and I, for one, don't think it really matters in the slightest what sins you end up committing in your life.

Fallen Temstar, in your post, I got the feeling you were suggesting that God is deliberately targeting a specific group. Your argument could be applied to many other groups as well, however, and an important part of Christian doctrine is that absolutely everybody has the opportunity for salvation. As I hear it, those who lived before Christ was born (which, let's face it, would make it kind of hard to have ever heard about Christ) have an opportunity later to repent. Nobody is denied the chance to be saved. In that regard, whatever sins you may or may not have a natural inclination towards, you are given precisely the same opportunity as everybody else to be forgiven, and therefore saved. It's easy to think that God may be cruel when we witness suffering, but in the end, won't any harms in this life eventually pass, one way or another? I would suggest a different argument than yours; rather than God sending people to Hell for no reason, he would send them there because they did not take the gift of salvation when it was offered to them.

You do have something of a point in regards to the Bible itself, however; when translating between any languages, it's very easy to end up accidentally removing the meanings of some lines because words, between languages, can mean different things. I noticed that there was recently some controversy of a new edition of the Bible that was looking to change some lines to being more gender-neutral; this was actually more accurate to the original, untranslated text, but one denomination objected and said it intended to keep its traditional interpretation... even if that meant certain lines would be potentially less accurate, or even have a different meaning entirely. If anybody ever suggests that you unquestioningly accept every single thing in the Bible, particularly if it's been translated, you should probably take that with a few big grains of salt. The same with anybody who suggests an overly literal reading; the Bible contains many metaphors to start with, particularly in places like Revelations, and as with the gender terms, it's possible that language or culture can distort the meaning of the person who wrote something and give us a different result that may wind up being contradictory or just outright wrong. If you really want answers to things, it's usually best to do it yourself and study up on older languages and cultures.  

[Kozmog]

Rednal

*Sips tea* I think people like to overcomplicate issues like this sometimes. Christian doctrine notes that all humans are sinners. We simply tend to be sinners in many different ways. Lie, steal, kill, and so on and so forth. Not every sinner is a murderer, not every sinner is gay, and I, for one, don't think it really matters in the slightest what sins you end up committing in your life.

Fallen Temstar, in your post, I got the feeling you were suggesting that God is deliberately targeting a specific group. Your argument could be applied to many other groups as well, however, and an important part of Christian doctrine is that absolutely everybody has the opportunity for salvation. As I hear it, those who lived before Christ was born (which, let's face it, would make it kind of hard to have ever heard about Christ) have an opportunity later to repent. Nobody is denied the chance to be saved. In that regard, whatever sins you may or may not have a natural inclination towards, you are given precisely the same opportunity as everybody else to be forgiven, and therefore saved. It's easy to think that God may be cruel when we witness suffering, but in the end, won't any harms in this life eventually pass, one way or another? I would suggest a different argument than yours; rather than God sending people to Hell for no reason, he would send them there because they did not take the gift of salvation when it was offered to them.

You do have something of a point in regards to the Bible itself, however; when translating between any languages, it's very easy to end up accidentally removing the meanings of some lines because words, between languages, can mean different things. I noticed that there was recently some controversy of a new edition of the Bible that was looking to change some lines to being more gender-neutral; this was actually more accurate to the original, untranslated text, but one denomination objected and said it intended to keep its traditional interpretation... even if that meant certain lines would be potentially less accurate, or even have a different meaning entirely. If anybody ever suggests that you unquestioningly accept every single thing in the Bible, particularly if it's been translated, you should probably take that with a few big grains of salt. The same with anybody who suggests an overly literal reading; the Bible contains many metaphors to start with, particularly in places like Revelations, and as with the gender terms, it's possible that language or culture can distort the meaning of the person who wrote something and give us a different result that may wind up being contradictory or just outright wrong. If you really want answers to things, it's usually best to do it yourself and study up on older languages and cultures.

This is interesting stuff here. (My family doesn't take me to church <_>;; )
But what about the people who sin but don't know they're sinning? Like people who follow other religions? Like you said, they have a chance for salvation, but their religion is telling them that our religion is false, like our religion is saying about theirs. Different populations all rose up at the same time, and they didn't see God talking to them, telling them they have a chance, they saw their Lord Ganesh, or Zeus and whatnot. And they never met someone to tell them that there is one God out there, giving them a chance to believe in him. And their religions are telling them to be morally good just like ours. So what happens to them?  

[Shadows-shine]

I've always had a belief that it's impossible to sin or be saved in ignorance. God isn't going to condemn some one to hell just because they were Buddhist and knew nothing about Him or His Son. Not all of Christianity shares this belief with me, but it's the conclusion I've come to in all of my studying of the scriptures.  

[Rednal]

People often have very knee-jerk reactions to questions of doctrine. ^^; Often it's what they've been taught, and for the most part, I think they mean well. That is, they're fairly certain that "their" interpretation is correct, and on an issue as important as the salvation of one's soul, being wrong could have... lasting consequences. If it makes you feel any better, I attend church the first Sunday of the month; my own worship and study is mostly private, though I do enjoy a lively debate. You may find a book called "The Case for God" to be rather interesting. I... try to keep an open mind and not jump to conclusions too quickly. It's very easy to believe what you want to be true, rather than what actually is.

For people who follow other religions, they, too, will have an opportunity to hear about Jesus. Myself? I don't think that hearing about Christianity in passing (without knowing many details at all) will necessarily count as "hearing" about Jesus. As some have pointed out, that seems like it would be a little strange for an all-powerful deity who, as far as we can tell, seems interested in getting as many people to willingly accept His offer of salvation as He can. You do bring up the relevant question of people in different areas, and I'm afraid I can only give you the same answer: Everybody will have their chance at salvation. Period. Even after their death, should that prove necessary (which, by all evidence, it has). There are no excluded groups, no "unworthy" sorts of people, nobody who will be denied the opportunity. Of course, that's because none of us are worthy of salvation to start with. I'm Christian, but I'm also a sinner, and I'm not exactly superior to non-Christians regardless of my personal faith.

It's something I've always found interesting, and it's helped to make my faith stronger. Christianity does not impose a set of behavioral rules that people must follow in order tobe saved. It suggests that living the best life you can is a good idea, but even then, it acknowledges that there will be times you fail, times you sin, and there's really no getting around that. Salvation cannot be earned, because sinning disqualifies you from that. Instead, it is a gift, to be accepted or rejected freely. Hence sin and all the bad things that go with it; if there was no alternative to accepting salvation, it wouldn't truly be a gift. For it to really matter, to be a true choice, you must have the option of refusing it. To give a comparison, an election with only one name on the ballot isn't much of an election. In the same vein, if a Creator cares about all that He has created, why would He deny His blessings to some of us and not others, when we are all unworthy? That definitely doesn't add up, and it's not like God is limited in the scope of what He can do.

I hope for the salvation of each person, but I don't worry too much about the people who never had an opportunity to hear about Jesus (because they lived before he did, or are in some tiny village in the Amazon we haven't discovered, or... y'know, whatever). One way or another, all will have their chance at salvation. Any less would be absurd. Yet, that doesn't mean we should say "God will handle it" and not lift a finger to help others. Even if any good we do is ultimately temporary, to live as righteously as we can is still a noble ideal that should, perhaps, be our aspiration.  

[Icy Cult]

Br1ttana

Siimple Servant

Think about it this way, God KNEW us before HE created the entire UNIVERSE. He was probably testing Eve as He does to us today, and when Eve ate that apple, God already had another plan for us and that plan was to send Jesus Christ FOR US. We won't be able to understand God and His holiness - our minds cannot fathom it. And if you're doubting God, take those up to Him. He can control anything and everything.

The Lord doesn't tempt us! If I could find the stinkin' thread that went over this I'd link you to it, but the Lord doesn't tempt us! :/

I didn't say He did. I said He was TESTING them...Isn't there a difference? There is to ME. But i guess if there isn't to you then let it be...  

[Kozmog]

Rednal

People often have very knee-jerk reactions to questions of doctrine. ^^; Often it's what they've been taught, and for the most part, I think they mean well. That is, they're fairly certain that "their" interpretation is correct, and on an issue as important as the salvation of one's soul, being wrong could have... lasting consequences. If it makes you feel any better, I attend church the first Sunday of the month; my own worship and study is mostly private, though I do enjoy a lively debate. You may find a book called "The Case for God" to be rather interesting. I... try to keep an open mind and not jump to conclusions too quickly. It's very easy to believe what you want to be true, rather than what actually is.

For people who follow other religions, they, too, will have an opportunity to hear about Jesus. Myself? I don't think that hearing about Christianity in passing (without knowing many details at all) will necessarily count as "hearing" about Jesus. As some have pointed out, that seems like it would be a little strange for an all-powerful deity who, as far as we can tell, seems interested in getting as many people to willingly accept His offer of salvation as He can. You do bring up the relevant question of people in different areas, and I'm afraid I can only give you the same answer: Everybody will have their chance at salvation. Period. Even after their death, should that prove necessary (which, by all evidence, it has). There are no excluded groups, no "unworthy" sorts of people, nobody who will be denied the opportunity. Of course, that's because none of us are worthy of salvation to start with. I'm Christian, but I'm also a sinner, and I'm not exactly superior to non-Christians regardless of my personal faith.

It's something I've always found interesting, and it's helped to make my faith stronger. Christianity does not impose a set of behavioral rules that people must follow in order tobe saved. It suggests that living the best life you can is a good idea, but even then, it acknowledges that there will be times you fail, times you sin, and there's really no getting around that. Salvation cannot be earned, because sinning disqualifies you from that. Instead, it is a gift, to be accepted or rejected freely. Hence sin and all the bad things that go with it; if there was no alternative to accepting salvation, it wouldn't truly be a gift. For it to really matter, to be a true choice, you must have the option of refusing it. To give a comparison, an election with only one name on the ballot isn't much of an election. In the same vein, if a Creator cares about all that He has created, why would He deny His blessings to some of us and not others, when we are all unworthy? That definitely doesn't add up, and it's not like God is limited in the scope of what He can do.

I hope for the salvation of each person, but I don't worry too much about the people who never had an opportunity to hear about Jesus (because they lived before he did, or are in some tiny village in the Amazon we haven't discovered, or... y'know, whatever). One way or another, all will have their chance at salvation. Any less would be absurd. Yet, that doesn't mean we should say "God will handle it" and not lift a finger to help others. Even if any good we do is ultimately temporary, to live as righteously as we can is still a noble ideal that should, perhaps, be our aspiration.

I'm glad I didn't leave this guild. So in your 3rd paragraph what you're saying is, I've been doing good so far? Trying my best to not sin at all times and believing in him?
 

[Kozmog]

Jester25

The way that I have always understood it is... that you're not held accountable for things/sin that you do not know about. Sin is when you know something is wrong and you do it anyway. But that's another thing... if you know something is wrong, and you try not to do it, that counts. God judges your heart, He knows that you're at least trying, and that's what counts. We're all human, we all make mistakes, because we are not perfect, and He understands that, I mean He made us after all. But He still expects us to at least try, and if we screw up, we ask for His forgiveness, and His help, and try not to do it again.

edit: Also if we never make a mistake, we cannot learn or grow. We as people learn from mistakes, and it makes us stronger... I mean it's one thing to know something, and another to actually experience it.

Sorry for jumping into the conversation... but that is my opinion on all of this...

@thread: and correct me if I am wrong on any of that.

I had the same opinion! But I just don't want to assume anything first until I get some knowledge in. This is a good guild.