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 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:28 pm
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ArchAngel Nikolai kesuke uchiha ArchAngel Nikolai kesuke uchiha ArchAngel Nikolai Rednal Nn. Well, I think that part of it is that some people think the Catholic focus on Saints is close to having Idols or even outright Polytheism. Others want to have a close relationship with God, and not have to go through someone else. Others think the idea of a central religious authority that answers all questions is a little too overbearing, since they don't believe the Church to be infallible, and therefore even the Pope could potentially be wrong (Catholics, of course, may disagree). And still other people think there should be less of an emphasis on enormous cathedrals and outrageously rich interiors, and more focus on giving to others and helping them out. And then there's the people who think that Catholic attitudes over the past 1900-ish years are what lead to the Holocaust, of course. See the book "Constantine's Sword" for more on that. *Shrugs* Me, I think Catholics are absolutely Christian, just... liable to get some of the details wrong. Of course, I say the same thing about the church I attend, so yeah. I wouldn't say that I particularly dislike Catholics or anything, but I do think that some policies and traditions have caused more harm than good, and I'd like to see those changed. Just as, y'know, a human being who prefers results with the highest level of "good". Asking a saint to intercede in prayer is the same as asking your friend to pray for you. You can think thats wrong all you want, but its not about what you think. If God is real, If Through God the earlier Church Leaders out together the bible, Then God played a part in the tradition that were being practiced while the new testament was being put together. Catholic thinking cause the holocaust? Fact: Hitler could have blamed it on anyone. There was a professor who did a study, He started to separate his class tell one group they were better then the other. By the end out It the one group Hated the other group of kids. Hitler used the economical state of his country to control his people. but then again If you want to blame the church go ahead. What policies and tradition cause more harm then good? not an expert or anything...but he may have been talking about another holocaust....where thousands upon thousands of not jews but Muslims where killed.....the crusades.... I did a quick study...and I am too sure...but what I have been led to believe is that it had a point in the begining...a good cause....but then that cause got twisted into vengence and turned into a hunt where the templars and religous fanatics just went out to kill every non christian they could get their hands on...man woman or child....which as you can imagine...is very unpopular... Im not going to defend the Crusades. This is how it went down in history class. The Kings have family sons, nephews, cousins that did not own any land. They were all knights, they had nothing to do but get drunk and fight each other. It got out of hand. To keep them busy and to stop all the knights and kings from fighting each other the pope called for a crusade to the holy land. Their were reasons for it, and its the same as so called christians today saying we should invade Iran, Iraq, or any other country. People start wars over power, It doesnt matter if religion is involved or not. But again I agree there were mistakes in the past, But The crusades weren't a policy or a tradition. What Policies or traditions do you believe are more harmful? some policies and traditions are set by man....and man is arrogant...and not to be trusted at face value....there is no saying what is more harmful....so long as we are mortal we will never have it right...that is just our nature many things of God are just beyond mortal comprehension and when we try and figure it out...people get hurt...wars get started and Christianity is stained again Thats a bit vague. Name a policy you disagree with and I can at least explain why we do it.
I have no quarrels with the catholic faith ^_^ just because I do not believe everyting they do does not mean that I will confront them...it is not my place.... and as far as I know...the only things that they do that is wrong...is...well in the past...and what is behind us is behind us...forgive and forget.... ^_^ |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:43 pm
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ArchAngel Nikolai Im not here trying to say Im better then you, Im trying to clear some things up. We are all brothers and sisters in christ, we should be united in the world not hating each other.
No, we aren't. Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is one. I have no more spiritual fellowship with a false Christian than I do a pagan. I'm sure there are some true Christians in the Catholic church, but from what I have seen, we're lacking true Christians everywhere.
Quote: The Bible you use to pull quotes to bash the Church was put together by Councils of Catholic leaders. It doesn't matter If its King James or New American Standard Its Derived from the Books the catholics put together.
American government also wrote the Constitution, but I can use that to show where they are clearly wrong in what they are doing. Patriot Act, anyone?
But seriously. Just because your organization put the Bible together doesn't mean that they are following what is written inside. Besides, whether you like it or not, you will do the will of God. He has, countless times, used His enemies to achieve His will. How many times did He use pagan kings to punish Israel?
Quote: By the Council of Nicaea in 325, the orthodox New Testament was more or less agreed upon, but the Eastern Churches (the future Eastern Orthodox Churches) gradually developed a different canon from that adopted by the Western Church (later the Roman Catholic Church).
Agreed upon, sure, but it wouldn't exist as it did if God hadn't desired it to be that way. Nobody, not even the Catholic church, can do anything if God doesn't allow it. The Bible as it exists does so because God willed it, not because the church decided to.
Quote: I Was baptized and Confirmed into the Eastern Orthodox but I attend Roman Catholic mass as well. Im not here to convert you, but If you have an issue with the way catholic are feel free to share and Ill clear the water. I find most of the hatred towards the Church is based on False or Lack knowledge.
I've expressed my concerns in the topic that probably inspired you to make this one. That topic also explained many of the issues that other people here have with Catholics. If you would like to go and address the issues I have there, feel free, but I am not going to rehash what's been done. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:46 pm
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Rednal Quote: Catholic thinking cause the holocaust? Fact: Hitler could have blamed it on anyone. There was a professor who did a study, He started to separate his class tell one group they were better then the other. By the end out It the one group Hated the other group of kids. Hitler used the economical state of his country to control his people. but then again If you want to blame the church go ahead. *Grins* Yeah, it's pretty easy to make groups dislike each other. In fact, some schools of thought suggest that the *only* thing you need is to have groups at all. Think less current Catholic thinking and more... couple thousand years of Anti-Jewish actions. It does sort of build up. Of course, on the other hand, I'm a terrible, awful person who will question every single belief a church has without hesitation (up to and including that the Bible was, in fact, put together with God's help and wasn't just a collection of the texts thought most politically expedient; yay, heresy!) in an attempt to find better answers... so I don't think I do very well with Churches who expect you to agree that they have all the answers, all the time. I figure that if you can't admit the possibility of being wrong, you're probably on the way to a kind of fanaticism or fundamentalism, along with overly-narrow interpretations of things that probably weren't meant to be taken literally. Like, was Jonah actually eaten by a whale/giant fish, or was that a metaphor for a Roman prison? Or something else? Quote: What policies and tradition cause more harm then good? That one.
One Im Orthodox Catholic, We don't accept the popes word as law. You dont do we'll with churches...
Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.
Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.
John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.
Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.
Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.
A few of many passages About One unified church, One Teaching and The church it self being visible.
So you may not do well with churches, But as a christian I believe in "one holy catholic and apostolic church" All I ask is you understand Why we have the church and why we have one shared understanding of the bible. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:47 pm
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VK Fox ArchAngel Nikolai Im not here trying to say Im better then you, Im trying to clear some things up. We are all brothers and sisters in christ, we should be united in the world not hating each other. No, we aren't. Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is one. I have no more spiritual fellowship with a false Christian than I do a pagan. I'm sure there are some true Christians in the Catholic church, but from what I have seen, we're lacking true Christians everywhere. Quote: The Bible you use to pull quotes to bash the Church was put together by Councils of Catholic leaders. It doesn't matter If its King James or New American Standard Its Derived from the Books the catholics put together. American government also wrote the Constitution, but I can use that to show where they are clearly wrong in what they are doing. Patriot Act, anyone? But seriously. Just because your organization put the Bible together doesn't mean that they are following what is written inside. Besides, whether you like it or not, you will do the will of God. He has, countless times, used His enemies to achieve His will. How many times did He use pagan kings to punish Israel? Quote: By the Council of Nicaea in 325, the orthodox New Testament was more or less agreed upon, but the Eastern Churches (the future Eastern Orthodox Churches) gradually developed a different canon from that adopted by the Western Church (later the Roman Catholic Church). Agreed upon, sure, but it wouldn't exist as it did if God hadn't desired it to be that way. Nobody, not even the Catholic church, can do anything if God doesn't allow it. The Bible as it exists does so because God willed it, not because the church decided to. Quote: I Was baptized and Confirmed into the Eastern Orthodox but I attend Roman Catholic mass as well. Im not here to convert you, but If you have an issue with the way catholic are feel free to share and Ill clear the water. I find most of the hatred towards the Church is based on False or Lack knowledge. I've expressed my concerns in the topic that probably inspired you to make this one. That topic also explained many of the issues that other people here have with Catholics. If you would like to go and address the issues I have there, feel free, but I am not going to rehash what's been done.
The Church is Visible and One
Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.
Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.
Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.
John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.
John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.
John 17:9-26 - Jesus' prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.
John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.
Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.
Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.
1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean "invisible" unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.
Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.
Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.
Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.
Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.
Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.
Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?
Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.
1 Tim. 6:4 - Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ.
2 Tim. 2:14 - do not dispute about words which only ruin the hearers. Two-thousand years of doctrinal unity is a sign of Christ's Church.
2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ's teachings which He gives us through His Church.
Rev. 7:9 - the heavenly kingdom is filled with those from every nation and from all tribes, peoples and tongues. This is "catholic," which means universal.
1 Peter 3:8 - Peter charges us to have unity of spirit. This is impossible unless there is a central teaching authority given to us by God.
Gen. 12:2-3 - since Abram God said all the families of the earth shall be blessed. This family unity is fulfilled only in the Catholic Church.
Dan. 7:14 - Daniel prophesies that all peoples, nations and languages shall serve His kingdom. Again, this catholicity is only found in the Catholic Church.
1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ's Church. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:49 pm
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ArchAngel Nikolai VK Fox ArchAngel Nikolai Im not here trying to say Im better then you, Im trying to clear some things up. We are all brothers and sisters in christ, we should be united in the world not hating each other. No, we aren't. Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is one. I have no more spiritual fellowship with a false Christian than I do a pagan. I'm sure there are some true Christians in the Catholic church, but from what I have seen, we're lacking true Christians everywhere. Quote: The Bible you use to pull quotes to bash the Church was put together by Councils of Catholic leaders. It doesn't matter If its King James or New American Standard Its Derived from the Books the catholics put together. American government also wrote the Constitution, but I can use that to show where they are clearly wrong in what they are doing. Patriot Act, anyone? But seriously. Just because your organization put the Bible together doesn't mean that they are following what is written inside. Besides, whether you like it or not, you will do the will of God. He has, countless times, used His enemies to achieve His will. How many times did He use pagan kings to punish Israel? Quote: By the Council of Nicaea in 325, the orthodox New Testament was more or less agreed upon, but the Eastern Churches (the future Eastern Orthodox Churches) gradually developed a different canon from that adopted by the Western Church (later the Roman Catholic Church). Agreed upon, sure, but it wouldn't exist as it did if God hadn't desired it to be that way. Nobody, not even the Catholic church, can do anything if God doesn't allow it. The Bible as it exists does so because God willed it, not because the church decided to. Quote: I Was baptized and Confirmed into the Eastern Orthodox but I attend Roman Catholic mass as well. Im not here to convert you, but If you have an issue with the way catholic are feel free to share and Ill clear the water. I find most of the hatred towards the Church is based on False or Lack knowledge. I've expressed my concerns in the topic that probably inspired you to make this one. That topic also explained many of the issues that other people here have with Catholics. If you would like to go and address the issues I have there, feel free, but I am not going to rehash what's been done. The Church is Visible and One Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation. Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year. Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions. Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose. John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church. John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church. John 17:9-26 - Jesus' prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history. John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father. Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church. Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ. 1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals? Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean "invisible" unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible. Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church. Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations. Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many. Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations. Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel. Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations? Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects. 1 Tim. 6:4 - Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ. 2 Tim. 2:14 - do not dispute about words which only ruin the hearers. Two-thousand years of doctrinal unity is a sign of Christ's Church. 2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ's teachings which He gives us through His Church. Rev. 7:9 - the heavenly kingdom is filled with those from every nation and from all tribes, peoples and tongues. This is "catholic," which means universal. 1 Peter 3:8 - Peter charges us to have unity of spirit. This is impossible unless there is a central teaching authority given to us by God. Gen. 12:2-3 - since Abram God said all the families of the earth shall be blessed. This family unity is fulfilled only in the Catholic Church. Dan. 7:14 - Daniel prophesies that all peoples, nations and languages shall serve His kingdom. Again, this catholicity is only found in the Catholic Church. 1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ's Church.
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Created the same time the bible was put together, by the same council |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:51 pm
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kesuke uchiha ArchAngel Nikolai kesuke uchiha ArchAngel Nikolai kesuke uchiha not an expert or anything...but he may have been talking about another holocaust....where thousands upon thousands of not jews but Muslims where killed.....the crusades.... I did a quick study...and I am too sure...but what I have been led to believe is that it had a point in the begining...a good cause....but then that cause got twisted into vengence and turned into a hunt where the templars and religous fanatics just went out to kill every non christian they could get their hands on...man woman or child....which as you can imagine...is very unpopular... Im not going to defend the Crusades. This is how it went down in history class. The Kings have family sons, nephews, cousins that did not own any land. They were all knights, they had nothing to do but get drunk and fight each other. It got out of hand. To keep them busy and to stop all the knights and kings from fighting each other the pope called for a crusade to the holy land. Their were reasons for it, and its the same as so called christians today saying we should invade Iran, Iraq, or any other country. People start wars over power, It doesnt matter if religion is involved or not. But again I agree there were mistakes in the past, But The crusades weren't a policy or a tradition. What Policies or traditions do you believe are more harmful? some policies and traditions are set by man....and man is arrogant...and not to be trusted at face value....there is no saying what is more harmful....so long as we are mortal we will never have it right...that is just our nature many things of God are just beyond mortal comprehension and when we try and figure it out...people get hurt...wars get started and Christianity is stained again Thats a bit vague. Name a policy you disagree with and I can at least explain why we do it. I have no quarrels with the catholic faith ^_^ just because I do not believe everyting they do does not mean that I will confront them...it is not my place.... and as far as I know...the only things that they do that is wrong...is...well in the past...and what is behind us is behind us...forgive and forget.... ^_^
Sorry you quoted me quoting someone else who said they didn't agree with the policies got mixed up |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:01 pm
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VK Fox ArchAngel Nikolai Im not here trying to say Im better then you, Im trying to clear some things up. We are all brothers and sisters in christ, we should be united in the world not hating each other. No, we aren't. Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is one. I have no more spiritual fellowship with a false Christian than I do a pagan. I'm sure there are some true Christians in the Catholic church, but from what I have seen, we're lacking true Christians everywhere. Quote: The Bible you use to pull quotes to bash the Church was put together by Councils of Catholic leaders. It doesn't matter If its King James or New American Standard Its Derived from the Books the catholics put together. American government also wrote the Constitution, but I can use that to show where they are clearly wrong in what they are doing. Patriot Act, anyone? But seriously. Just because your organization put the Bible together doesn't mean that they are following what is written inside. Besides, whether you like it or not, you will do the will of God. He has, countless times, used His enemies to achieve His will. How many times did He use pagan kings to punish Israel? Quote: By the Council of Nicaea in 325, the orthodox New Testament was more or less agreed upon, but the Eastern Churches (the future Eastern Orthodox Churches) gradually developed a different canon from that adopted by the Western Church (later the Roman Catholic Church). Agreed upon, sure, but it wouldn't exist as it did if God hadn't desired it to be that way. Nobody, not even the Catholic church, can do anything if God doesn't allow it. The Bible as it exists does so because God willed it, not because the church decided to. Quote: I Was baptized and Confirmed into the Eastern Orthodox but I attend Roman Catholic mass as well. Im not here to convert you, but If you have an issue with the way catholic are feel free to share and Ill clear the water. I find most of the hatred towards the Church is based on False or Lack knowledge. I've expressed my concerns in the topic that probably inspired you to make this one. That topic also explained many of the issues that other people here have with Catholics. If you would like to go and address the issues I have there, feel free, but I am not going to rehash what's been done.
Definition of Christian: A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.
Again the Catholic profession of faith:
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
We acknowledge Baptism and Profess Faith in Jesus Christ and have been doing so longer then anyone. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:23 pm
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:31 pm
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Rednal *Sips tea* I am trying so hard to resist being snarky here. XD Of course, that's kind of my normal personality, so yeah. There's a lot I CAN respond to here, but... To keep it simple... *Rubs chin* What is it that makes the Catholic interpretation inherently correct over any other possible interpretation, including when something may (or may not) mean more than one thing? See also: Galileo.
the same way that makes your opinion and interpretation better then 2000 years of Belief.
Its said Many times in the Bible that there is One church, If it was Gods will the Nicene council put together the bible, Then it is also Gods will that they pass on their traditions and beliefs and their interpretation of the bible.
The catholics put it together, If your in the mind set that they Interpretate it wrong, Who's to say they choose the wrong books to include in it. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:37 pm
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Rednal *Sips tea* I am trying so hard to resist being snarky here. XD Of course, that's kind of my normal personality, so yeah. There's a lot I CAN respond to here, but... To keep it simple... *Rubs chin* What is it that makes the Catholic interpretation inherently correct over any other possible interpretation, including when something may (or may not) mean more than one thing? See also: Galileo.
The only issues you seem to have is Not In the catholic faith, Its the wrong doings of People, and society. Every one Sins, Everyone is susceptible to corruption. The Catholics have more baggage because we have been around Longer that any other christian denomination. Corruption of man does not make the faith itself wrong. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:27 pm
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ArchAngel Nikolai VK Fox ArchAngel Nikolai Im not here trying to say Im better then you, Im trying to clear some things up. We are all brothers and sisters in christ, we should be united in the world not hating each other. No, we aren't. Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is one. I have no more spiritual fellowship with a false Christian than I do a pagan. I'm sure there are some true Christians in the Catholic church, but from what I have seen, we're lacking true Christians everywhere. Quote: The Bible you use to pull quotes to bash the Church was put together by Councils of Catholic leaders. It doesn't matter If its King James or New American Standard Its Derived from the Books the catholics put together. American government also wrote the Constitution, but I can use that to show where they are clearly wrong in what they are doing. Patriot Act, anyone? But seriously. Just because your organization put the Bible together doesn't mean that they are following what is written inside. Besides, whether you like it or not, you will do the will of God. He has, countless times, used His enemies to achieve His will. How many times did He use pagan kings to punish Israel? Quote: By the Council of Nicaea in 325, the orthodox New Testament was more or less agreed upon, but the Eastern Churches (the future Eastern Orthodox Churches) gradually developed a different canon from that adopted by the Western Church (later the Roman Catholic Church). Agreed upon, sure, but it wouldn't exist as it did if God hadn't desired it to be that way. Nobody, not even the Catholic church, can do anything if God doesn't allow it. The Bible as it exists does so because God willed it, not because the church decided to. Quote: I Was baptized and Confirmed into the Eastern Orthodox but I attend Roman Catholic mass as well. Im not here to convert you, but If you have an issue with the way catholic are feel free to share and Ill clear the water. I find most of the hatred towards the Church is based on False or Lack knowledge. I've expressed my concerns in the topic that probably inspired you to make this one. That topic also explained many of the issues that other people here have with Catholics. If you would like to go and address the issues I have there, feel free, but I am not going to rehash what's been done. Definition of Christian: A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings. Again the Catholic profession of faith: We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. We acknowledge Baptism and Profess Faith in Jesus Christ and have been doing so longer then anyone.
The Bible is pretty clear as to whether or not baptism is a requirement for salvation. You can't have "Either you must be baptized or believe in Jesus Christ." There's no "or" about it.
Furthermore, and I'll beat this horse until the day I die, just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't mean that they are. The confession is nice, but that doesn't make the Catholic church anymore Christian than it does the guys I work with (who also say they are Christian, btw.)
Notice a lot of what I'm getting at. They say they're Christian. They profess with their mouths. That's great, but where is the fruit? Where are the evidences of their faith? Why do they so often trample over the Bible they claim is theirs? "We made the Bible alright, but here's this hierarchy business that's nowhere to be found in the pages..." |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:28 pm
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ArchAngel Nikolai Rednal *Sips tea* I am trying so hard to resist being snarky here. XD Of course, that's kind of my normal personality, so yeah. There's a lot I CAN respond to here, but... To keep it simple... *Rubs chin* What is it that makes the Catholic interpretation inherently correct over any other possible interpretation, including when something may (or may not) mean more than one thing? See also: Galileo. the same way that makes your opinion and interpretation better then 2000 years of Belief. Its said Many times in the Bible that there is One church, If it was Gods will the Nicene council put together the bible, Then it is also Gods will that they pass on their traditions and beliefs and their interpretation of the bible. The catholics put it together, If your in the mind set that they Interpretate it wrong, Who's to say they choose the wrong books to include in it.
God is. That's the issue. Do you really think they did something God didn't allow? Also, if it was God's will that their traditions be passed down, why do so many of them violate the Bible? Is the Holy Spirit a liar? Did God contradict Himself? |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:35 pm
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VK Fox ArchAngel Nikolai VK Fox ArchAngel Nikolai Im not here trying to say Im better then you, Im trying to clear some things up. We are all brothers and sisters in christ, we should be united in the world not hating each other. No, we aren't. Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is one. I have no more spiritual fellowship with a false Christian than I do a pagan. I'm sure there are some true Christians in the Catholic church, but from what I have seen, we're lacking true Christians everywhere. Quote: The Bible you use to pull quotes to bash the Church was put together by Councils of Catholic leaders. It doesn't matter If its King James or New American Standard Its Derived from the Books the catholics put together. American government also wrote the Constitution, but I can use that to show where they are clearly wrong in what they are doing. Patriot Act, anyone? But seriously. Just because your organization put the Bible together doesn't mean that they are following what is written inside. Besides, whether you like it or not, you will do the will of God. He has, countless times, used His enemies to achieve His will. How many times did He use pagan kings to punish Israel? Quote: By the Council of Nicaea in 325, the orthodox New Testament was more or less agreed upon, but the Eastern Churches (the future Eastern Orthodox Churches) gradually developed a different canon from that adopted by the Western Church (later the Roman Catholic Church). Agreed upon, sure, but it wouldn't exist as it did if God hadn't desired it to be that way. Nobody, not even the Catholic church, can do anything if God doesn't allow it. The Bible as it exists does so because God willed it, not because the church decided to. Quote: I Was baptized and Confirmed into the Eastern Orthodox but I attend Roman Catholic mass as well. Im not here to convert you, but If you have an issue with the way catholic are feel free to share and Ill clear the water. I find most of the hatred towards the Church is based on False or Lack knowledge. I've expressed my concerns in the topic that probably inspired you to make this one. That topic also explained many of the issues that other people here have with Catholics. If you would like to go and address the issues I have there, feel free, but I am not going to rehash what's been done. Definition of Christian: A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings. Again the Catholic profession of faith: We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. We acknowledge Baptism and Profess Faith in Jesus Christ and have been doing so longer then anyone. The Bible is pretty clear as to whether or not baptism is a requirement for salvation. You can't have "Either you must be baptized or believe in Jesus Christ." There's no "or" about it. Furthermore, and I'll beat this horse until the day I die, just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't mean that they are. The confession is nice, but that doesn't make the Catholic church anymore Christian than it does the guys I work with (who also say they are Christian, btw.) Notice a lot of what I'm getting at. They say they're Christian. They profess with their mouths. That's great, but where is the fruit? Where are the evidences of their faith? Why do they so often trample over the Bible they claim is theirs? "We made the Bible alright, but here's this hierarchy business that's nowhere to be found in the pages..."
You can say that about any denomination, Not just catholics. Just because people are Corrupt, doesn't mean the faith is. I didn't say "Or", Baptism or belief in christ is the universal definition of christianity. The Catholic Church Baptizes and believes. The One Baptism for the forgiveness of sin as stated in the creed is the baptism of our lord Jesus Christ. The Catholic church has more baggage because its been around longer, but there is plenty of heresy in every other denomination. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:37 pm
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VK Fox ArchAngel Nikolai Rednal *Sips tea* I am trying so hard to resist being snarky here. XD Of course, that's kind of my normal personality, so yeah. There's a lot I CAN respond to here, but... To keep it simple... *Rubs chin* What is it that makes the Catholic interpretation inherently correct over any other possible interpretation, including when something may (or may not) mean more than one thing? See also: Galileo. the same way that makes your opinion and interpretation better then 2000 years of Belief. Its said Many times in the Bible that there is One church, If it was Gods will the Nicene council put together the bible, Then it is also Gods will that they pass on their traditions and beliefs and their interpretation of the bible. The catholics put it together, If your in the mind set that they Interpretate it wrong, Who's to say they choose the wrong books to include in it. God is. That's the issue. Do you really think they did something God didn't allow? Also, if it was God's will that their traditions be passed down, why do so many of them violate the Bible? Is the Holy Spirit a liar? Did God contradict Himself?
Ok name one Official catholic Tradition or belief that violates the bible? |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:50 pm
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ArchAngel Nikolai The only issues you seem to have is Not In the catholic faith, Its the wrong doings of People, and society. Every one Sins, Everyone is susceptible to corruption. The Catholics have more baggage because we have been around Longer that any other christian denomination. Corruption of man does not make the faith itself wrong.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you're arguing that the Catholic faith is correct, but that humans are corrupted. However, it's humans who interpret the Bible and determine church doctrine... so, presumably, human interpretations can be corrupted as well. Unless the Catholic faith has never, ever changed positions on a single issue, I think it's important to establish the possibility of being incorrect. That's not to say that any particular belief is or is not, but that each simply may be wrong. Well-intentioned, and the best efforts of wise and thoughtful people over a period of time, but possibly wrong. Would you agree?
And if not, can you elaborate on why it is that you feel Catholics are unable to ever be wrong? For myself, the only non-Jesus humans I believe to be infallible are prophets delivering a message from God. I don't believe that any religious leader or religious institution is free from being wrong, because that would kind of negate the entire purpose of existence. |
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