So who is a Christian?

[rmcdra]

PawzPrint

Regarding faith and works

This is a quote from my Apologetic Study Bible regarding James 2:14-26

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"Many skeptics argue that a contradiction exits between Paul's statement that "a man is justified by faith apart from works" and the teaching of James that "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". However, these positions actually complement one other.

First, Paul and James addressed different situations. On the one hand, Paul refuted a Jewish legalism holding that one must observe the law's requirements in order to be saved. On the other hand, james opposed an antinominanism that was twisting faith in Christ so much that no expression of works was necessary.

Second, when Paul used the word "justified," he meant "saved" or "declared righteous," whereas James meant "vindicated" or "authenticated." By "works," Paul menat "works of the law," whereas James meant works that faith produces.

In the light of the above, Paul was saying that one is declared righteous by God apart from the works of the law. James, by contrast, was saying that a person's faith produces works that vindicate his faith in Christ as genuine."

I'm not seeing how this means faith alone though. It means that faith is first and foremost but a balance of faith and works are necessary.

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Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. VIII
When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, "without which it is impossible to please God" and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, "if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise," as the Apostle says, "grace is no more grace."

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Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. XVI
Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: "Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name"; and "Do not lose confidence, which hath a great reward." Hence, to those who work well "unto the end" and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.

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Referring to Matthew 7:21
Again from the same book:

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"A person who comes to Christ for salvation comes to Christ the Lord, who has the right to demand obedience because of His lordship. Note that Jesus did not teach here that works save us, but rather that doing good works is a reflection of our obedience to God's will. Attempting to earn salvation by works is a rejection of Christ's sovereignty. Sin replaces God's sovereignty with our human bent toward self-will and rebellion against God's will."

But that has nothing to do with buying salvation. It has to do with those who claim to be with Christ but does not do the will of the Father.

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Referring to the Book of Mormon vs. the Bible.
This is true.
That is why it is said:

Galatians 1:6-7

"I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from Him who called you by the grace of Christ, and are turning to a different gospel - not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are troubling you and want to change the gospel of Christ."

He goes on to say that teaching a false gospel will cause you to be damned.

Pyropyre

False Assumption #1: If It’s not Paul’s Gospel, Its a cult

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:8 is employed as a stick to exclude any Church which they disagree. Any with a differing doctrine than what they believe Paul taught, even if its just an addition, is what they call “another” gospel and then they say that such are not “real” Christians.

Firstly, the Christian world is hardly clear on what the gospel of Paul even is; the multitudes of Protestant churches existing today testify that no form of the reformation and Bible-alone doctrines could succeed in restoring absolute truth. God has always accomplished this through new revelation, which Paul often received, and is what he based "the gospel" on, not another’s book, because the Gospel can change by revelation.

More could be learned by discussing "what" is "the gospel" Paul is talking about.

What is "clear" is Paul rebuking a very specific fellow, a certified Christian. (Ergo, he is not a “non-Christian” or “cultist” by which Paul would ever exclude him from being a Christian). But this verse is often used to define a cult anyway. A fellow Christian was perverting the gospel. Namely it was Saint Peter the Apostle.

The gospel that Jesus had preached to the Apostles was changed. Thus Paul himself taught a different gospel than Jesus and Peter had. It had in fact changed by a revelation to Peter. Changed from the ministry of Christ, by which Jesus and his disciples took his message only to the "sheep" of the House of Israel, and not to the Gentile nations. It was Peter, whom after Jesus had left, received the ‘Vision of the Unclean Animals’, which was interpreted to widen the ministry to include the Gentiles. But then Peter, somehow, became uncertain whether there should be full fellowship with the "uncircumcised" Gentiles.

Paul thus becomes upset when Peter entered into Paul's mission field, and is teaching "another gospel" than the one he was teaching. So Paul then condemns anyone who was teaching another gospel than the one [he] declared, to those in his mission field. Paul therefore condemns Peter for teaching "another gospel" and referred it as "the gospel of circumcision" (Gal. 2:7).

This caused so much of a disruption in the church that the Apostles gathered in Jerusalem to resolve the issue and to determine and write their unified position (Acts 15).

The Gospel can change, and it had changed from what Christ taught by a new revelation, and Galatians 1:6-9 has to do with a specific doctrinal problem confronting the early Christians. To apply this scripture to any other doctrines with which you disagree is to wrest the scriptures. And to apply this scripture to any new revelation is to deny the ability of God to do so, which he of course, can.

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Referring to John 13:34
That is true too, but just because I love everyone as Christ loves me, that doesn't save me. Imho, Romans 9:10 and John 13:34 go hand in hand together but Romans must come first for one to receive the gift of slavation.

True but it not our profession that saves us but God's grace which we express through our faith and our love for one another as Christ loved us.  

[WoodSorrelWitch]

rmcdra

I'm not seeing how this means faith alone though. It means that faith is first and foremost but a balance of faith and works are necessary.

I was never arguing that it was faith alone. I was arguing that Roman Catholics believe that they are saved in part by good works.

rmcdra

[quote"PawzPrint"Referring to John 13:34
That is true too, but just because I love everyone as Christ loves me, that doesn't save me. Imho, Romans 9:10 and John 13:34 go hand in hand together but Romans must come first for one to receive the gift of slavation.

True but it not our profession that saves us but God's grace which we express through our faith and our love for one another as Christ loved us.
Where did I mention our profession?



To clarify, weren't we originally debating about RC and mormons being Christians?  

[rmcdra]

PawzPrint

I was never arguing that it was faith alone. I was arguing that Roman Catholics believe that they are saved in part by good works.

But that is not entirely true about Catholicism. Man is saved by God's grace through faith but faith alone is dead. With faith there must be works to show for one's faith. The quote from the Council on Trent, On Justification, Ch. XVI states this.

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Where did I mention our profession?

Here:

you

So I will say this. A person is a Christian if he or she has done what Romans 9:10 says. That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. A real Christian has a deep relationship with Jesus.

This is only the first step as James 2 demonstrates since faith alone is dead. Anyway back on topic Catholics and Mormons both accept this as true about the faith, and neither side proclaims that faith alone nor works alone will save you. They both profess Jesus is Lord and teach about building a relationship with Christ. By your own definition they are Christian.

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To clarify, weren't we originally debating about RC and mormons being Christians?

Yes and you are still have yet to show that they aren't, if anything you are showing misconceptions about them and have provided more support for them being Christian rather than not.  

[WoodSorrelWitch]

I've looked at a lot of sites regarding if Mormons and RCs are Christians. They've differed, but they all generally say the same thing.

Here are a couple examples:
http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/are_mormons_christian.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm  

[rmcdra]

Response to Are Mormon Christian?

http://ldsdoctrine.blogspot.com/2008/12/those-abominable-creeds-by-ron-huggins.html

Numbers 23:19 The point of this is to say that God does not lie. It says God is not a man. It doesnt say God was never a man.

Psalms 102:26-27 God is the same. That doesnt mean He stands in one place but is a living God who never deviates from His straight course. God is not just the existing God but the true and living God.

Isaiah 43:10-11, "beside me there is no saviour." Right, God is eternal and there is only one God who will save Israel. This doesnt say there arent others "called gods" in heaven.

Isaiah 44:6 Beside God there is no other God. God will always remain supreme over man, and man under god. Again this doesnt say there arent others "called gods" in heaven.

Isaiah 44:8 From the verse before, there is only One God who will reveal the future "things that are coming" to Israel. Again this doesnt say there arent others "called gods" in heaven.

[Jews and Arians used these verses to deny the divinity of Christ. If this was the Father speaking, how could He say this knowing about Christ who would come]

Isaiah 45:21-22, There is none else but the One True God who will save Israel and reveal the future. This does not say there are not others in heavens "called gods"

Jeremiah 23:24 Time does not confine God. He dwells in the eternal now. Everything is present before Him. Therefore, He can be everywhere and somewhere at the same time. God's presence still fills the immensity of space.

Malachi 3:6 God doesnt change. He does not deviate from his straight course.

John 1:16-18 No man in his natural state has seen God. But prophets saw and spoke to him with their spiritual eyes. Joseph Smith saw God with his spiritual eyes in vision.

John 4:24 God is spirit, and also has a glorified tangible body. If the body were evil, why would Christ heal it. If the body were unnecessary, why would Christ raise it from the dead? But we are told to worship God both in spirit (spirit) and in truth (body).

Romans 1:22 Yes it is error to create God in your image. But remember it was God who created man in his image first.

Colossians 1:15 God is invisible to the natural man. But Enoch and Adam walked and spoke with God.

1 Timothy 1:17 To take the invisible comment literally you have to interpret all the accounts of the prophets as figerative. To be unbiased, you must also list all the anthopomorphic references and descriptions of God.

1 Timothy 6:16 No man in his natural and fallen state can approach or see God. But throught the transformative power of the Holy Ghost we become new creatures. Do you deny the transformative and sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost?

Pyropyre

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Brigham Young, said, "When the Virgin Mary conceived the Child Jesus ... He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is His father? He is the first of the human family" (Journal of Discourses, pages 50-51).

Compare this with the Word of God, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).

Can they not read "Power of the Highest"? The Highest, aka the Most High God is God the Father, and the rest of the New Testament is very clear that God the Father is Jesus' Father.

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Mormons teach that Jesus Christ suffered for sin in the Garden of Gethsemane when He sweat "as it were" great drops of blood. Mormons totally avoid the Biblical teaching of Christ's atonement for sin which was accomplished on the Cross.

No quotations. Self evident, huh? So, Jesus wasn't in "agony" in Gethsemane? Even the pains on the Cross didn't make Jesus sweat blood. The view that Gethsemane was the scene of Jesus' greatest "agony", is an understanding supported by Mark's description of Jesus' experience, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, unto death" (Mark 14:34).

Jesus was foretold to suffer bodily, but at sometime in spirit, "Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows…. was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53.4-5) Being killed on a cross ain't special. Our Lord suffered anguish of soul for sin, that it might never rest on us. To deny this is in effect to charge our Lord with undue weakness below the heroism of martyrs, some whom were also crucified.

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Note the following quote from, "What Mormons Think of Christ" (LDS publication, pages 32-34):

"Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much is believed and taught on this subject, however, it is utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one's salvation."

It goes further to say that salvation is "conditional on faith, and repentance, and baptism and keeping the commands of God."

I would like to add, yes, it is very true that Christians do speak much of the blood of Christ. Note the emphasis the Bible places on the blood of Christ:

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Hebrew 9:14).

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" (Revelations 1:5).

An obscure source with an incoherent quotation and an incoherent response.

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The ejection of this Biblical truth by the LDS church shows again it is not a Christian church.

Note that in the following verses the Bible says salvation, which is forgiveness of sin and receiving of eternal life, is a gift of God, and it is not obtained by "works":

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Romans 4:5).

So what "works" is Paul referring to? The works of the law. What law? Very specifically, the Law of Moses. Sacrifices, blood, incense and offerings do not save. It's not difficult to observe that’s what he meant, unless you are hopelessly fettered to a dogma.

Taking Paul in isolation from the other teachings of Jesus (such as James) which is to distort Paul's message. People see the traditional canon to be centering on Paul, the Gospel texts exist in some Christian Church's minds merely to illustrate an underlying Pauline text. While asserting that the Gospels were fully authoritative, the Gospels do not for them function as authorities.

Doctrine of salvation by faith alone without any requirement for obedience is not truly consistent with Biblical teachings on salvation, on judgment, on free will, and denies any relationship between faith and works. "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:17)

John 14:15-21 "If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

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One question that I would ask all Mormons is this: "If I accept you as a Christian, will you accept me as a Mormon?" Would you accept me as a Mormon if I reject Joseph Smith and all the LDS prophets as being prophets of God. If I do not believe in the Book of Mormon or the LDS Scriptures, baptisms for the dead, the temple endowments, the LDS gospel, would you accept me as a Mormon? The answer is obviously, you would not. In like manner, when Mormonism denies the Bible and every Christian doctrine do you think that Biblical Christians should accept Mormons as Christians? Again the answer is very obvious, no we will not. You cannot legitimately claim to be Christians when you refuse to accept what the Bible teaches and what a true Christian believes.

That's one dumb argument. Mormonism is a sub-category of Christianity so of course, even if one argued all Mormons are Christians, it does not follow that all Christians are Mormon. Am I Catholic if I reject the Apostolic Succession of the Pope, and believe you don't have to be baptized in water, etc, No. Would I be still considered a Christian? Yes.

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I am aware that the L.D.S church has several definitions of salvation and several degrees of glory. A good discussion of the problem is found on the Internet at http:CastYourNet.com/LDS-Shock.

Ancient Judaism believed in a Hierarchy of Seven Heavens such as recorded in the Enochian Literature and Jewish Apocrypha/Pseudographia Scriptures where there is a multi-layered world, these layers were called "Firmament" or Shamayim (Heavens or Skies) in the Old Testament or just "Heavens" in the New Testament era.

In the Talmud it teaches the seven as...

* Vilon (וילון), Also see (Isa 40:22)
* Raki'a (רקיע), Also see (Gen 1:17)
* Shehaqim (שחקים), See (Ps 78:23, Midr. Teh. to Ps. xix. 7)
* Zebul(זבול), See (Isa 63:15, I Kings 8:13)
* Ma'on (מעון), See (Deut 26:15, Ps 42:9)
* Machon (מכון), See (1 Kings 7:30, Deut 28:12)
* Araboth (ערבות), The seventh Heaven where ofanim, the seraphim, and the hayyoth and the throne of the Lord are located.

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The real Jesus Christ is the "only begotten of the Father." He is not one of many sons and certainly not the brother of Satan as the following Scriptures clearly state:

God the Father is the Father of all Spirits. We are all children of God, "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8: 17)

If you claim that any Mormon thinks Satan was a begotten son of God is the stupidest example of a theologian ever.

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John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

What John said is generally true, just not absolute. Stephan saw God.

Matt. 5: 8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Perhaps an explanation from the early Christian document, Clementine Homilies:

"For I maintain that the eyes of mortals cannot see the incorporeal form of the Father or Son, because it is illumined by exceeding great light. For he who sees God cannot live. For the excess of light dissolves the flesh of him who sees; unless by the secret power of God the flesh be changed into the nature of light, so that it can see light." (Clementine Homilies 17:16)

 

[rmcdra]

Most of the answers unless stated otherwise are from Here

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley.

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Call no Man Father: (Mt. 23:9) And call no man your father upon the earth; for one is your Father, which is in heaven. What is Christ referring to when He makes this statement? Well, to understand one must read what comes before and what comes after. In the verses before 9, Jesus is making a point about the scribes and the Pharisees. He states to the crowds that they should observe them (Pharisees and scribes) but not do as they do. He states that the Pharisees and the scribes want their works to be "seen" by men and that they love to be called Rabbi, or Father, or Master. Jesus wanted the crowds to see that the Pharisees and scribes did not deserve the titles given to them, they were not worthy of them.

Why do Catholics use the term father when speaking to a priest? Just as your earthly father cares for your physical needs and wants throughout your life, a priest also cares for his flock, but in a spiritual sense. A priest is there for parishioners' at rebirth (baptism) and throughout life. When one of his flock is in the hospital he is there, he is there even when the spirit departs the body at death. Let us look at some verses that use the term "father."

(1 Cor 4:15) - For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

(Acts 7:2) - And he said, Men, brethren and fathers, hearken; the God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

(Acts 1:73) - The oath which he swore to our father Abraham.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Forbidding the priesthood to marry.

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Priestly Celibacy -A priest knows full well before he takes his final vows that celibacy is a part of that vow. The Catholic Church does not force men to become priests, they freely choose this vocation and are well aware that celibacy is one of the requirements. Let us look at some Bible verses that support priestly celibacy:

(Mt. 19:12) - Jesus speaking: For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb; and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men; and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom or heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

(1 Cor. 7:32-33) - But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord; But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

With God's grace anything is possible. Priests only follow the footsteps of their high priest Jesus, who for his entire life remained unmarried.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. A perpetual virgin.

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What about Mary's Children? - The fact is, Mary had no other children, only Jesus. Then why does the Bible mention Jesus' "brothers and sisters?" In Hebrew and Aramaic there is not a word for the term "cousin," so the word "brethren" was used. Through out the Bible the term "brethren" is freely used. For example, in 2 Kings 10:13-14, there is a reference to the forty-two "brethren" of king Ochozias. In Mark 6:1-3, the "brothers" of Jesus are listed as "James, Joses, Simon and Judas are mentioned. It's funny but Mary is NEVER called the mother of anyone except as being the mother of Jesus. The "brethren's" of the Lord could not have been the sons of Mary. Look at Mark 15;40, the women standing at the foot of the cross was Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; John 19:25 states: ·Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas (this means that she was Jesus' aunt and her sons' Jesus' cousins.), and Mary Magdalene. Mark 15:47 states and Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses (this would be Jesus' aunt - Joses his cousin) be held where he was laid. Mark 15:47 states: And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome (As you see, there is no mention of Mary the mother of Jesus), had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him (again we see his aunt - and James and Salome his cousins).

The gospel account of 12-year-old Jesus lost in the temple does not mention siblings. If Christ did have brothers, why did he entrust his mother to the care of his beloved disciple? Why does Mt. 1:25 state that "he knew her not til she brought forth her 1st son? This does not imply they before Jesus' birth or after his birth, sexual relations took place between Mary and Joseph. All this implies is that an action did not take place up to a certain point. For example, · 2 Sam 6:23 states, "Michale the daughter of Saul had no children until the day of her death." Does this mean she had children after her death? Of course not!! All that this states is during her life she had no children. You must remember that the way of speech and interpretations in Jesus' day is far different then the way we imply today.

The early Christian writings of the DIDACHE (358 A.D.) state the following:

767a [2, 70] The union, therefore, was of just such a kind, so that He might unite what is man by nature, to Him who is the nature of the Godhead, thereby assuring the accomplishment of salvation and His deification. Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature form the Father and proper to His essence, deny also that He took true human flesh from the Ever-Virgin Mary. In neither case would it have been profitable to us men: if the Word were not by nature true Son of God, or if the flesh which He assumed were not true flesh

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the queen of heaven.
Source document of this teaching
ad caeli reginam

Wikipedia summary

Queen of Heaven is a title given to the Blessed Virgin Mary by Christians, mainly Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, and Orthodox Churches, to whom the title is a consequence of the Council of Ephesus in the fifth century, where the Virgin Mary was proclaimed Mother of God.

Catholic teaching on this subject is expressed in the papal encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam,[1] issued by Pope Pius XII. It states that Mary is Queen of heaven because her son Jesus is King of Israel and heavenly king. In Hebrew tradition the mother of the king is queen. Catholic dogma (Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus) states that the Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.[2] The title Queen of Heaven has long been a Catholic tradition, included in prayers and devotional literature, and seen in Western art in the subject of the Coronation of the Virgin, from the High Middle Ages, long before it was given more formal status by the Church. For centuries, Catholics, while reciting the Litany of Loreto were calling on Mary as queen of heaven.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the mother of God.

This site denies the trinitarian teaching that holds that God was fully man and fully God. Mary gave birth to Jesus. Since Jesus is fully man and fully God and Jesus is the second person of the Trinity who is God, this makes Mary the mother of God.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Pope called Holy Father.

Already partially addressed so let us dig some more.

Wiki Answers

Papal Holy Father

Catholics refer to the pope as the "Holy Father". It is merely a title. Christians agree or disagree with whether this appropriate.

Why Catholics use the term "Holy Father"

* He is called upon to practice exceptional sanctity in imitation of Jesus Whose office he serves. The pope is also the "Father" to all the catholic churches while alive.
* Jesus chose the apostles to be the earthly leaders of the Church. He gave them his own authority to teach and to govern not as dictators, but as loving pastors and fathers. That is why Catholics call their spiritual leaders "father." In doing so we follow Paul's example: "I became your father in Jesus Christ through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:15).Against the term "Holy Father"
* Catholics and Orthodox Christians call priests "Father" based on St. Paul's theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests: "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14-15).

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Purgatory, nuns, popes.

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Catholics invented Purgatory; the Bible does not mention it. There is another word that is not in the Bible either and that is the word Trinity. How many non-Catholics believe in the Trinity? A lot! They believe in what the word represents being; the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The same goes with the word Purgatory. The Bible gives evidence of the state of Purgatory as follows:

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

In Purgatory all remaining love of self is transformed into love of God. As Rev. 21-27 states, nothing defiled can enter heaven. Prayers from those still living on earth can help free those who are in Purgatory who are unable to pray for themselves. The Bible shows the following:

(Mt. 12-32) - that some sins are forgiven in the next world:

(Mt. 12-32) - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come (some sins can be forgiven after death-where? Purgatory)

(1 Cor 3:13,15) - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. (the fire is the purification of Purgatory).

(1 Peter 3:19-20) - By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah…(After Jesus' death he went and preached to the spirits in prison that were disobedient. Now, these prisoners were not in Heaven or Hell, where were they? These spirits are in a waiting place being purified for their disobedience, the place is called Purgatory.)

(2 Machabees, 12-46) - It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.

What proof do we have from the early Christians? We have the graffiti in the Catacombs. On the walls above the graves of the early Christians during the first 3 centuries, there are many references for prayers for the dead. Why would there be prayers for the dead if they were already in Heaven? If they were some where other than Heaven or Hell, then they would need prayers. Also, there is no evidence in early writing that there was a struggle with this belief, it was accepted and well known. To this day Orthodox Jews still pray for the souls of their dead friends and relatives. So the notion of Purgatory is far from being an invention of the Catholic faith, it goes back way before Christ.

Let's address the pope

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Catholics invented the Pope to replace Christ. The Pope is not an invention, and he does not replace Christ. In Mt. 16:18-19, Jesus made it clear that he wanted Peter to lead his church on earth. Why? Jesus knew that he would die and that everything that he accomplished would be gone without someone to guide his Church. Jesus does not tell Peter that he will replace him; He only states that Peter will be given authority and power to act in His name.

Let us look at what the early church taught: Early Christian Writings of St. Clement of Rome (Letter to the Corinthians 80 A.D. - Taken from the DIDACHE:

21 [44,1] Our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. [2] For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned, and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry. [3] As for these, then, who were appointed by them, or who were afterwards appointed by other illustrious men with the consent of the whole Church, and who have ministered to the flock of Christ without blame, humbly, peaceably and with dignity, and who have for many years received the commendations of all, we consider it unjust that they be removed from the ministry.

As for nuns they are a monastic order of women and monastic traditions have been a part of Christianity since it's beginnings. I don't see how this applies to "adding to the Bible" since this is something that is optional and not required for Catholics.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images. Pope bows to statues of Mary, people worship the eucharist and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

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Catholics worship statues and saints, look inside their churches! When you see the Statue of Liberty, do you worship it? What about a statue of George Washington? What do these statues represent to you? Why is it ok for these non-Catholic statues to be in existence, but statues of Jesus, Mary, St. Joseph, etc. considered unthinkable? Catholics do NOT worship statues or worship saints! A statue is merely a representation of someone who was once living, or in secular terms it can also be a sign of something, such as independence. What about that picture of your family that you have on your desk at work. Your picture helps you to remember and it brings back memories. Are you worshiping your picture every day? Of course not! The only one worthy of worship is God, and God alone! If a Catholic did worship a statue or saint, they would be excommunicated from the church. You must remember that the Catholic Church is traced back to the apostles. They could not take a picture of Jesus and carry it around in their pocket--cameras did not exist. But in the early Church, one way of remembering was by erecting statues of those of importance, such as Jesus, Mary, etc. Why do you think that it is so odd that Catholics have statues in their churches and no other denomination does? Because Catholics carried the tradition from the early Church!

If statues were so taboo by God, then why did God command Moses, while in the desert, to put a serpent on a pole?

(Num 21: cool - And the Lord said unto Moses, make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Then what about the construction of the Ark of the Covenant?

(Ex. 25:1 cool God said to Moses - And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat (vs. 20) And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look at one to another…

Now, there is an instance when God forbids statues, and that is the well known incident in Exodus 32-8 when the people created a molten calf. This calf was not a reminder but it was created to be a God so that it could be worshiped.

As you see, a statue is harmless if it is being used as a representation of someone or something, but when the statues becomes a God that is worshiped, then there is much harm and those who worship as such are wide open to the wrath of God.

Not to mention your site seems to think any type of art is bad.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - The mass. Through transubstantiation, the wafer/host and the wine supposedly become the actual blood and body of Jesus Christ when the priest prays over them.

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How can bread and wine become the flesh and blood of Jesus? Let us look at John 6:52-55, the Jews had a hard time believing Jesus' words as do non-Catholics.

(John 6:52-55) - The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

(John 6:5 cool , Jesus explains the importance of this bread, that He states that it is truly Himself. "This is that bread which came down from heaven; not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." (This bread that Jesus speaks of, is the food that will give life)

In John 6:66 many of Jesus' disciples left Jesus because they could not believe in His words. Then Jesus says to His twelve apostles in John 6:67 "Will ye also go away?" It is clear what Jesus is stating, He does not take back His words and He does not say that it is another parable. He gives His apostles the opportunity to leave. Then Peter Simon, speaking for the 12 states in John 6:68, "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.

Non-Catholics believe that John 6:53 is merely a symbol and not the actual presence of Christ. If Jesus were truly a symbol, then verse 27 through 29 in 1 Cor. 11 would not make sense. In this verse Paul states:

(1 Cor. 11:27-29) "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Saved, in part, by good works.
I've already addressed this one but lets go through this one again.

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Do Catholics believe that the good works they do will get them into Heaven? Catholics do believe that works will get them to Heaven accompanied by faith and God's grace. There are so many verses in the Bible stating that entrance into Heaven is not as simple as saying "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior." Let us see what the Bible has to say about salvation:

(Phil 2:12) -…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

(Rom 2:5-6) - …the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

(James 2:14) - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?

(Mt 16:27) - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

(2 Cor. 5:10) - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

(Mt. 25:31 46) - (the verse is too long to quote, here is a summary) Jesus states that He will separate His sheep from the goats. Jesus goes on to say; when I was hungry did you feed me? When I was thirsty did you give me drink? When I was naked did you clothe me? When I was sick did you visit me? When I was in prison did you visit me? When I was stranger did you take me in and clothe me? Jesus then states that anyone who has done these things for his brother did so for Himself and He invites the righteous into life eternal. Those who did not help his brother in need, were sent into everlasting punishment.

In the verses above, it is quite clear to see that salvation is not as simple as stating that one proclaim Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. It is a nice thing to say and should be said every day, but there is more to salvation then accepting Christ as one's personal Lord and Savior.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - The church is founded on Peter.

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What proof do you have that Peter was the first Pope? The term "Pope" signifies the head Bishop of the Catholic Church. Catholics consider Peter the first Bishop of the Catholic Church. Let us look at Mt. 16:18-19:

(Mt. 16:18-19): And I say also unto Thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loosen earth shall be loosed in heaven.

It is interesting to note that in Mt. 16:18-19 Jesus quotes Isaiah 22:21-22:

(Isaiah 22:21-22) - And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut and none shall open.

What does this quote mean? Jesus is referencing Isaiah in order to show that authority is being passed down not only in the Old Testament but also in Jesus' words "thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church." It is a clear indication of apostolic succession. Jesus will "build" his church but it will not be finished being built. There will be those who will follow.

Let us look at Revelation 1:18 and what "keys" signify.

(Rev. 1:1 cool : I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore. Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Who holds the keys in Revelation? God! Just as Jesus gave the apostles the power to cast out demon's in his name. By Jesus giving Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, he is giving him the power to do as he did while he was on earth, such as forgiving sins, making decisions about the church and the faith. Jesus continues by saying, "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loosen earth shall be loosed in heaven." Jesus is telling Peter as ruler of the church on earth his decisions on earth will be also recognized in heaven. Let us look also at John 21:15-17, Jesus singles out Peter as tell him 3 times to feed his sheep:

(John 21:15-17): So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou Me? He saith unto him Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time. Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

What is Jesus trying to tell Peter when He states, feed MY sheep? MY sheep, are what? They are Jesus' followers. Jesus as head shepherd asks Peter to carry on as the head shepherd of the flock. How will Peter feed the flock? Peter will feed the flock spiritually. Here are some additional verses that confirm Peter's role as head of the church.

(Lk 22:32) - Jesus: But I have prayed for thee (Peter) that thy faith fail not; and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

(Acts 1:15) - And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said…

(Acts 2:14) And Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

(Acts 4:8-12) - Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel…

(Acts 15:7) - And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Confessing sins to a priest. Petitioning saints and Mary.

Confession

Can sins be forgiven by confession to men? The Bible teaches us that only by confessing our sins can we achieve forgiveness from God. How do we know this? Again, the Bible tells us these facts. Let's start with the Old Testament. In II Samuel 12:13, David confesses his sins to Nathan and was given assurance from Nathan that his sins were forgiven. From the New Testament we see many verses regarding confessing sins, however, we will stick to only the verse pertaining to the authority that God gave man. Look at John 20:22-23 it states that Jesus "breathed" on them and said:

(John 20:22-23) Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

How can anyone take this out of context, this passage is as clear as day? God has given man the authority, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to forgive sins. It is interesting to note that there is only two places in the Bible that the term "breathe" is found as an action performed by God. The first, of course, is in the Old Testament Genesis 2:7 when God "breathes" the breath of life into man. In John 20:22, God again "breathes" the gift of life into man (the gift of Eternal Life) in that He is giving His representatives the authority to assist in purifying the souls of men, thus giving them life. Let us look at verses to support confession:

(Acts 19:1 cool - And many that believed came (to the Apostles), and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

(Matt. 18:1 cool Again, Jesus gives the apostles authority by stating: Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever y shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven.

(2 Corinthians 2:10) Paul said: If I forgave anything, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave it I in the person of Christ."

( 2 Cor. 5:18-20) Paul states; (read the whole verse) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (the ministry of forgiving sins); to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

It is easy for us to say in our head "Jesus I am sorry for the sin I committed" however, this type of confession is hardly the type of confession Jesus intended for us--especially when the Bible states otherwise! To stand in front of a representative of Christ, whom God has given the authority to be His stand-in, and actually state aloud the sin, which was committed with true contrition, is not an easy thing to do--think about it? Once an individual goes to confession and actually states the sin aloud with true contrition, it is guaranteed that a relief and cleansing will immediately follow, as well as a strong sense of forgiveness--there is no doubt that you are forgiven--you know! Confession gives the penitent a fresh start to perhaps work with a strong passion to never commit the sin. Not only does confession cleans the soul, it is pleasing to God and He fills the soul with graces.

saints

Why do Catholics pray to saints when they can go straight to God? Catholics ask the saints to mediate for them. One reason is that the saints are closer to God then we are here on earth. Let us say there is a job you want in a certain company and you know someone who is a friend of the Boss who is hiring. Would you go directly to the Boss or would you rather your friend speak about you to the Boss first? How about another example, there is always that certain person you know, whether it be your pastor, priest, or friend, whom you always feel that their prayers are stronger for what ever reason, and when you ask them to pray for your important need, you feel a confidence that God will surely hear your request now. This is the same reasoning that Catholics use when they ask a saint to help them pray for a certain intention. You know that the saints prayers are a lot stronger than your own because they are perfected and in Heaven with God.

Catholics Worship saints? Just because saints are very special in the Catholic Church does not mean that they are worshiped. Catholics do not worship saints. A saint is someone who has lived their life so perfectly in the service of God that they changed others around them while they were alive on earth. Their example was exemplary. If their life was so exemplary on earth, they can only be perfected to the utmost in heaven. Catholics do ask saints for intercessory prayers. For example, if your dad is dying, you may ask members of your church to pray for him. Why is this accepted? Why can we ask others to pray for us on earth, but cannot ask those who are far more perfect than us mortals, to pray for us in heaven? Ok, I know what you are going to say…there is no one in heaven. Again, this is not true; let us look at some more Bible verses to get to the truth.

Lk 23: 43 - Jesus said to the good thief: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Looks like someone is up there with Jesus…)

Lk 9:29-30 - Peter, James, and John accompanied Jesus: And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias. (Hey, what are Moses and Elias doing…they are supposed to be dead!)

Everyone is called to be a saint and we must work very hard in perfecting our faults and loving our neighbors. What could possibly be wrong with having perfected role models in heaven?

Why do Catholics have Relics of Saints? Many miracles and cures are attributed to relics, not because they have a power of their own, but because of the holiness of the individual they represented. Let us look at several Bible verses:

(Mt. 9:20-21;22) - And behold, a woman which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment....and the woman was made whole from that hour. (It was not the garment that made this woman well but the holiness of Jesus).

(Mt. 9:20-21;22) - ...And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

(Acts 19:11-12) - And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

(Acts 5:15-16) - Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them (Even Peter's shadow was enough to heal those who were sick. It was not Peter that healed those in which his shadow was cast, but it was God working through Peter).

This site you provided as proof also has numerous historical errors and seems to think that even watching television is a sin. There's too many historical errors to address but if you would like any of them addressed then just bring it up. And it seems that catholicism is supported by the Bible, though I'm not surprised.  

[WoodSorrelWitch]

To be honest, you have flooded me with a lot of information.
As it strains my eyes to sit and read from a computer screen for a long time, I have only scanned what you've posted if that.
In some instances, I feel that you have only proved what I've been saying.

I'll also say that I don't find Wiki credible. At all.
There is so much information here that I don't know what to do with it, other than brush it aside. You might as well be on a street corner yelling the Bible's teachings to people.

If you'd like to continue, break it down. Let's look at mormons or RCs instead of both. And let's look at one or two things instead of trying to look at everything.

But I think we might have to agree to disagree in the end.

What say you?  

[rmcdra]

I was just addressing the information flood that you sent me but alright then. Which group would you like to question first, Catholics or Mormons? Which issue of their beliefs would you like to show is unbiblical and why this disqualifies them as Christians?  

[WoodSorrelWitch]

Hmm.
I'd say Catholics are not Christians because they idolize Mary.
One of the ten commandments commands us to not idolize.  

[rmcdra]

PawzPrint

Hmm.
I'd say Catholics are not Christians because they idolize Mary.
One of the ten commandments commands us to not idolize.

Your wording is throwing me off. Are you claiming that they worship Mary or that making statues of her is the commandment they are breaking?

If you are referring to making statues of her then that would mean any type of religious art is idolatry. You know you could even extend that to any type of art. Unless you are saying that?

If you are claiming they worship her then you are right in that you worship a judge when you say "Your Honor" or use the expression "worship the ground he walks on". Worship literally means something of worth. God is something of worth, so is Mary, so are our teachers, so are Kings and leaders, so are our family... We make a distinction though in the worth we recognize in things and people though right? You would not address God the same way you would address a King or address the President the same way you would address a child? Catholicism distinguishes between types of worship, veneration and adoration. Veneration is respect or honor given to those recognized to have made it to Heaven, Mary and the Saints are people that are recognized as being in Heaven and alive because in the Kingdom there is eternal life. Mary is given the highest honor because of her role as the Mother of Christ and is believed to have been assumed by God into Heaven. When a person bows to a king they are not worshiping the King but giving him honor and respect (venerating). Adoration is what most people refer to when they say worship within the Protestant denominations. This is only for God and God alone. Giving adoration to Mary or any of the saints would be idolatry because to do so would be saying that they are greater than God. Catholicism forbids this.  

[WoodSorrelWitch]

No, I was not referring to art being idolatry.
That's pretty simple wording actually....

Anyways.

That's all fine and dandy but guess what? In the end, Mary was still a human. She was not our creator. I understand the distinction you pointed out because I understand the concept of agape love (at least I'd like to think I do).



I did talk briefly to one of the pastors at my church today.
He said that Catholics could be considered Christians if they believe and follow the core of Christianity. That would be that Jesus is Lord, He died on the cross for us, He rose again and that we accept His gift of salvation. We follow Him and sin no more. He said that if that is understood and followed, they could be considered Christians.

Mormons on the other hand are a cult.
It's only been around for a little over 200 hundred years and there are no documented historical manuscripts. Golden Plates that no one was aloud to see? Ha. Oh? Moroni took them back to heaven with him? Sounds convenient.

After the "Book of Mormon" was translated from the "tablets", it went to the printers and then to the bookstore in 1830? That's only 20 years after Smith had the "vision" of Moroni?

It sounds like Mormonism is nothing but a money making fraud.
Mormons are expected to give 10% of their income to the church?

Smith used "magic" stones and was even charged and fined for it!

His own wife held out from joining his "church" because even she was skeptical of the golden tablets. He ended up pressuring her into it. Later he ended up taking many more "wives" and taught Mormon women that them entering heaven was largely dependent on the "worthiness" of her husband. Soooo, what happened to Jesus dying on the cross for everyone's sins?




 

[LoveLoca]

First off pawzprintz you have the total wrong idea of catholics. YEs we belive int the virgin mother mary, but we also worship christ too. Catholics just interperted the bible differently then the christians. We still belive in the same stuff as christians. And honestly you have no idea what your talking about with catholics so until you become a catholic or study up on cathoilism a little better, keep your mouth shut  

[WoodSorrelWitch]

XxxLiLAng3lCuti3xxX

First off pawzprintz

You can call me Pawz.

XxxLiLAng3lCuti3xxX

you have the total wrong idea of catholics.

You have yet to convince me that I am wrong.

XxxLiLAng3lCuti3xxX

YEs we belive int the virgin mother mary, but we also worship christ too.

Believing and worshiping are two different things. Common sense dictates that's worshiping. "Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen." What the Mary going to do for you? Not only is she dead but she was human just like us. What makes you think she has special powers or privileges? She has no influence with Jesus. Did she die on the cross for us?

XxxLiLAng3lCuti3xxX

Catholics just interperted the bible differently then the christians.

It is also possible to interpret things incorrectly.

XxxLiLAng3lCuti3xxX

We still belive in the same stuff as christians.

Granted, some Catholics do believe in the core basis:
Jesus died on the cross for us and rose again.
Jesus is Lord.
And we need to confess with our mouths that He is Lord and believe that He died for us.

XxxLiLAng3lCuti3xxX

And honestly you have no idea what your talking about with catholics so until you become a catholic or study up on cathoilism a little better, keep your mouth shut

I do know what I'm talking about. You have yet to show me that you know what you are talking about. You don't need to get all butthurt over something that's not worth it. This is a civilized discussion or debate. Be more mature about it or I'll ask you to leave my thread. I don't take kindly to people with the attitude I sensed in your post. Good day.  

[Cigregret]

i used to be catholic and that was form age 0 to around 7 maybe. so i might not have the exact over all worship summary, but you are suppose to accept Christ as your savor so it is Christianity.

as for mormons there basically jews, they say there christian but they believe that christ was a profit.

now im sort of a universal christian i go to baptist, Lutheran, catholic, etc etc churches