I don't wanna...

[archbaker]

Lorien and I-Wind, forgive me if I presume too much, but it looks like you just have different definitions of what separates a "basic need" from a "higher emotion".

And as far as I can tell it's pretty subjective: If a dog wants to please its master that's clearly a higher emotion than some people give it credit for, but you could still argue that that sort of behavior was rooted in pack mentality and related to personal survival.


This is me making the discussion more muddy while pretending to clear things up.  

[LorienLlewellyn]

icywind1980

I'm not sure how we got on the topic of animals.

I don't know, you said you deserve better than animals, so I pointed out that humans aren't all that better or different. xp

icywind1980

On a similar topic, I feel having sex with animals should be unlawful since the animal cannot speak up for itself to determine if it is enjoying the act.

Agreed. Children, animals, and people with severe developmental disabilities are all placed in a "cannot legally give consent to sexual activity" group here in America. And I definitely support that law. 3nodding  

[LorienLlewellyn]

archbaker

And as far as I can tell it's pretty subjective: If a dog wants to please its master that's clearly a higher emotion than some people give it credit for, but you could still argue that that sort of behavior was rooted in pack mentality and related to personal survival.

Yes, it's definitely hard to tell what is more of an instinct versus a spontaneous thought or desire. And to make it even muddier, the same can be said of us. Am I talking to you because I really just want to talk? Or am I feeding a desire to be around other people, a basic pack instinct? Or am I talking in hopes of attracting someone, a mate finding instinct? It's really hard to say what really drives us humans too!

I was watching a documentary not too long ago about how people walk or talk different without even realizing it when they think someone of the opposite sex is watching or listening. Then of course there is hair dye, makeup, push up bras, sports cars, weight lifting, etc. I think we're a lot more driven by our desire to catch a mate than we realize!  

[Alarias]

archbaker

Alarias,

I think legislation should always be the last solution. Especially legislation that turns something natural into a crime.

If I may use your country (which I assume is the USA) as an example, it is already easier to go to prison than anywhere else in the western world, and in most countries world-wide. And that's quite a burden for a society.

Are we sure that current legislation on the subject would still be insufficient if enforced better? Perhaps if whatever money it would cost to issue and enforce the licensing was instead given to foster care programs and family courts?

Generally I'd be inclined to agree with you. I'm not a big fan of the government interfering with people but, I just don't think people as a whole are able or willing to take the steps necessary to really make a difference for society.

I'm sure more money directed to those services/programs would be beneficial but, it's not enough.
I've seen people, not only on tv shows like Maury and Divorce Court, but first hand that really make me believe there are way too many people that should NOT be allowed to give birth or to be left alone with a child and they have kids. Not enough is done for those kids and not enough is done to prevent it.

Natural doesn't always mean it's okay or that it's for the best. The more we learn about the way people work physically and mentally, the more we are able to understand how to improve the human race.

Leaving children up to chance when there are so many uneducated, childish, mentally unstable people out there just doesn't seem like the best way to go about it. We ought to give evolution some assistance and improve ourselves and in the process keep children out of the hands of people who aren't fit to care for them.

But you don't have to worry. I can't pull any strings to get these ideas put into motion. xp  

[icywind1980]

Alarias

archbaker

Alarias,

I think legislation should always be the last solution. Especially legislation that turns something natural into a crime.

If I may use your country (which I assume is the USA) as an example, it is already easier to go to prison than anywhere else in the western world, and in most countries world-wide. And that's quite a burden for a society.

Are we sure that current legislation on the subject would still be insufficient if enforced better? Perhaps if whatever money it would cost to issue and enforce the licensing was instead given to foster care programs and family courts?

Generally I'd be inclined to agree with you. I'm not a big fan of the government interfering with people but, I just don't think people as a whole are able or willing to take the steps necessary to really make a difference for society.

I'm sure more money directed to those services/programs would be beneficial but, it's not enough.
I've seen people, not only on tv shows like Maury and Divorce Court, but first hand that really make me believe there are way too many people that should NOT be allowed to give birth or to be left alone with a child and they have kids. Not enough is done for those kids and not enough is done to prevent it.

Natural doesn't always mean it's okay or that it's for the best. The more we learn about the way people work physically and mentally, the more we are able to understand how to improve the human race.

Leaving children up to chance when there are so many uneducated, childish, mentally unstable people out there just doesn't seem like the best way to go about it. We ought to give evolution some assistance and improve ourselves and in the process keep children out of the hands of people who aren't fit to care for them.

But you don't have to worry. I can't pull any strings to get these ideas put into motion. xp

Just because the general population is too stupid to realize that people even discuss these things, doesn't mean that they forfeit the right to live how they please. The beauty of living in a free society is that as long as the commonly agreed upon laws are upheld, most people don't even have to worry about being screwed over by the gov. If they just do what they're supposed to by laws set in place for the good of the people things tend to work out. That is not to say there isn't any corruption, because there are a lot of people on both ends getting an "inside" deal. But the majority just want to do what's right.  

[archbaker]

Lorien,

I was hoping you'd say just that. That is what I like about this forum.

Would you agree that some sort of scale could be made where humans and dolphins had more, let's say complex, emotions than birds?


Alarias,

I agree that society owes a responsibility to children, but I think the idea of punishing bad parents instead of helping them is part of the problem and not the solution.  

[LorienLlewellyn]

archbaker

Would you agree that some sort of scale could be made where humans and dolphins had more, let's say complex, emotions than birds?

Possibly. But I try not to put things on any sort of concrete scale when it comes to this because I think there is so much that we still don't know about what is really going on in the minds of animals. There was a time when no one would have figured that an ape could use sign language and express a wide variety of wants, thoughts, and preferences. There was a time when no one would have thought dolphins would think about their future. I think Dr. Pepperberg really opened people's eyes about what parrots might be capable of. But that doesn't mean that we know the full extent of their intelligence, emotions, abilities, etc. yet either. So who knows, maybe birds will surprise us even more one day.  

[Thaliat Everwood]

If I could do it, I'd say take the kids away from the all neglectful/uneducated/unfit parents....but there are so many of them out there, finding good homes for all those unfortunate children. I know a little girl with a dead beat for a mother, and if I could legally rescue her from that mess I would. Sadly, I can't, so all I can do is hope she doesn't turn in to her mother, and does get an education and make a real life for herself.

If I ever want kids, I will adopt. If I get knocked up, I want to abort knowing what I do about my genetics...but if my boyfriend (or husband, you never know) really wants the kid knowing all that, I'd be willing to go through with it. But I think he is with me on the not want children idea. We already agreed we won't be trying.

The world has enough of a population problem, I do not feel the need to add to the situation. Especially since so many people feel like popping out whole litters of children. Yikes!  

[archbaker]

Lorien,

I think I agree with you.


Thaliat,

Educated parents, my bottom.  

[Alarias]

archbaker

Alarias,

I agree that society owes a responsibility to children, but I think the idea of punishing bad parents instead of helping them is part of the problem and not the solution.

The idea isn't to punish bad parents, it's to eliminate them or at least greatly decrease the amount of them for the betterment of future generations.

Of course, I'm only speaking idealistically ...it would be a very complicated matter full of details regarding funding and whatnot. I'm just focusing on the end goal of it all and a generalized view of how to get to that point. I have no illusions of bringing about an overhaul of the system to get it there...it's just something I think should be worked towards in smaller more gradual steps.  

[Alarias]

Sorry for the double post but, my response was so lengthy I felt that it should be separate from my last post. Sorry about the length also sweatdrop

icywind1980

Just because the general population is too stupid to realize that people even discuss these things, doesn't mean that they forfeit the right to live how they please.

I think I disagree with you here. Because of the fact that a child will be greatly impacted by the way they are raised and by the genetics they inherit from their parents, I think that it's more important to consider their rights and the effect they will have on society over the rights of people who want to make babies without the proper resources to justify having the child in the first place.
You know what they say, your rights end when they infringe on the rights of another, and that child has the right to the best life we can provide.

icywind1980

The beauty of living in a free society is that as long as the commonly agreed upon laws are upheld, most people don't even have to worry about being screwed over by the gov. If they just do what they're supposed to by laws set in place for the good of the people things tend to work out. That is not to say there isn't any corruption, because there are a lot of people on both ends getting an "inside" deal. But the majority just want to do what's right.

I agree with you but, I think people can use a little bit of guidance in regards to figuring out what really is the best thing for society. Which is why I want laws in place dealing with the issue of parenting and childbirth that would serve to benefit everyone presently and in the future. To further mankind's potential, to reduce crime from people who were abused, to help reduce the over population issues, etc.

I think if people stopped focusing so much on their own ideas of needing to reproduce, they would see they aren't being screwed over. Not giving birth to a child does not make one's life somehow less important than anyone else's. Fertility is not really anything special and an inability to reproduce isn't something to be ashamed of, at least I don't think it is...and that's something I think people need to learn to understand and accept.

The significance we tend to put on having biological children, I think, stems from a survival instinct but, as has been pointed out, we have evolved past the point where all we do is rely on instincts to keep the race going. It seems logical to use what we now know and understand about human development and psychology to make future generations stronger, healthier, more intelligent, and to prevent/decrease the sort of problems that are caused by unfit parents being allowed to continue reproducing and rearing children.

My opinions on this are not formed out of some desire to punish bad parents or to try and dictate other peoples' choices. I don't care if someone thinks it's mean or immoral to tell a person "you aren't smart enough to have a baby" or "it would be too risky for both you and the child for you to give birth". I just don't think someone's hurt feelings or disappointment should count more than what's best for society.

You may ask who has the right to say who can have a child and who can't? I say that society does. It's an issue bigger than one person or one family. It impacts everyone and so is everyone's responsibility.  

[Aachren]

You all do realize that various programs all over the world have forcibly sterilized felons, the mentally ill, the mentally and physically disabled and other groups of people that were deemed unfit?

This thread is pushing eugenics. Do you not realize the danger of this line of thought? How insidious a form of sly genocide?

Oh, and birth rates in all the leading First World countries are falling.  

[Alarias]

Aachren

You all do realize that various programs all over the world have forcibly sterilized felons, the mentally ill, the mentally and physically disabled and other groups of people that were deemed unfit?

This thread is pushing eugenics. Do you not realize the danger of this line of thought? How insidious a form of sly genocide?

It's only a problem if abused and the same could be said of anything.
If a country came together and agreed upon the sort of restrictions that should be in place, with all groups of people represented, with no discrimination against sex, race, religion, or sexual orientation, then I fail to see what's wrong with the idea.  

[wakusei]

Alarias

If a country came together and agreed upon the sort of restrictions that should be in place

That's like...the biggest 'If' to ever 'If', man.  

[Alarias]

lol Maybe so ...but like I've said, this is only what I would ideally like to have happen. I would like for everyone to agree and for the method to be treated carefully and not go to extremes with it. I would like for people to be able to improve people by exercising a bit more control.
I see nothing wrong with wanting that.