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I like that argument Keiji, although I find the idea a bit unsettling to leave our fates in the hands of a being similar to a nerd who has been couped up so long in his room that he decides to make a robot girlfriend.

From reading the bible, I'd have to say that angels are not supposed to have free will, but are servants for god and all that it entails. Lucifer, being proud, was not satisfied with this role and led the unsuccessful revolution. Now, if you assume god is not omniscient and truly didn't see this one coming, then he banishes Lucifer and the angels who followed him, and Lucifer has now devoted his eternal life to getting some payback by getting souls from Earth, either to comvert to his ideals of independence and freedom, or to simply torure because they are god's children.

If you assume that god is in fact all-knowing and all-powerful, then everything went according to his plan, and Lucifer is actually playing the role he was meant to play: a manifest entity of all things considered "bad" so that humans have a more clear idea (as they are ruled best through fear) of what to do and what not to do. However, if you subscribe to this idea of everything playing out exactly as he wants it to (being all-knowing and all-powerful), then the concept of free will doesn't really exist at all. We may think that it does, and may feel like we have it, but everything may actually be pre-ordained by his master plan, of which we have no knowledge.

A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"


A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

"God created everything?" the professor asked.

"Yes sir, he certainly did," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

The student became quiet and did not answer the professor's hypothetical definition. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, “May I ask you a question, professor?"

"Of course," replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The other students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 F) is the total absence of heat' and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton’s prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used be man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.



To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.



side note: this probably didnt happen....but the point is still quite clear

I wouldn't call the KKK evil, just plain stupid. And through inverse mathematics that would make evil stupid which goes against all written authority, which state that evil is a cunning little blighter that can talk his way through a cork-screw without touching the sides.

As for the 'professor' story. This assumes that good and evil are physical quantities. They are not, not even on the quantum level. Good and evil are spiritual perceptions, and neither follows any of the laws of physics and/or nature. So whereas the story holds merit with the sections about cold and darkness, as soon as it hits evil it looses credibility.
Good and evil are not simply each other's opposite. They are two sides of an equasion so cosmicly complex, that we have yet to figure out how the h*** it works.

It's an interesting phiosophical debate, for sure. The one thing that will always counter your argument is that according to the bible, God gave humans free will. Christians will argue that humans choose to be evil or follow God's way and God has allowed people to do that.

However, I do agree with much of your logic. I mean, God can level a city with angels and what not without really destroying free will, so if he really wanted to change something he could. I really think he could do something about *****, too, but thats just me. I dunno how many of you have read the Old Testament, but man was God one angry guy! He kicked some serious a** all over the place.

Regardless of arguments in wether God exists or whatever, the fact is that his texts have given us a set of moral and rules to abide by that have done good for our world.

The philosophies of the various churchs have changed some of these rules, which is why many people are against the ideals of following God, but when you get down to it all God said to do was to live, love, and bring peace; to ourselves and those in the world.

The rest is mere sophistry.

Good points, I acknowledged similar ones.

However, I still stand by my belief that "evil" is a subjective term, and not nearly as simple to define as you did. If someone chooses not to believe in god, does that make them evil? If so, doesn't that seem a bit despotic? I'm in power, therefore if you're not with me I reserve the right to lock you up, kick you out, or snuff you out of existence.

Also, if god does give us the free will, thereby giving us the choice to do evil and not believe in his existence, he can't really fault us for taking the road less traveled. Rather than taking a direct route to reveal himself to us and showing us the way personally, he has others tel us secondhand, adding no credibility to his cause. If he really wanted all people to know and love him, and he has infinite power, he could easily do so, not by removing our free will, but using his own logic and presence to show us that it is the best way, if it is truly that.

Rather, god hasn't had the best track record of keeping humanity in line. Using the Tower of Babel and Noah's Ark as examples, even god has made mistakes, using his infinite power to "fix" his errors. I suppose you could say that this was his attempt to remove evil in the world, in which case I suppose he failed miserably, judging by how the world is today, although the word "evil" still is open to interpretation.

The standards that we use to measure evil are still based on societal standards that have been used and reproduced for generations. Whether or not these standards were made by a creator is up for debate, and it is a point I will be sure to cover in the other thread, "why do you believe what you believe."

Simply because I do not consider myself a perfectly righteous being does not mean that I don't have the right to question the authority of whomever puts themself in charge. It is only by questioning our surroundings and those in authority do we attain free will for ourselves. Like you said, there wouldn't be any point if we were all made to just love god without question, so if it truly is the logical and sound way to go, we'll all end up back to him anyways.

And I would absolutely LOVE to have a chat with god. PM me his AIM or Gaia screenname, or even his email, snail-mail, or any sort of address and I'll see what I can do to get in touch with him.

As for the free will bit, I apologize for being a bit unclear. Rather than meaning that we can't be faulted for doing wrong (which would be absolute insanity), I believe that people should take responsibility for their own actions, rather than relying on a higher power to hold us responsible. We have our own systems, flawed as they are, to regulate those who don't take responsibility, and we do our best to improve those systems. Any deity, I believe, has no right to judge us because they've never been among us and known how it is to be human.

Going back to Jesus, it depends on whether you believe that he actually was a god, or merely the progeny of one. I personally believe that he (assuming that the god exists) was the latter, as he didn't ask people to praise himself, but his god and father.

With the case of Noah and the time before the flood, if the world truly was as wicked as it could possibly get, isn't that the same thing as programming everyone to be not evil? It's a longer process, but if he wants to give everyone free will so that they love him, I find it a little childish of him to wipe the proverbial slate clean when things didn't turn out the way he wanted. If you created an entire species of people to love you, and then they didn't, wouldn't it be irresponsible to just kill them all off? Poor parents end up losing the love of all their children, I'm sure very few of them actually decide to just go out, kill all their kids, then start over, even if they're able to.

And what of the Tower of Babel? The story goes that humans were working together in harmony (something that wouldn't hurt in today's world), and because they were building something that they felt would rival god, he struck them down with language barriers. If he truly is a perfectly righteous being, how can he feel so threatened by an earthly creation, knowing full well that it is within his ability to craft the entire universe? Once again, his actions don't align themselves with the standard of morals that he sets down for his children to follow, the number one (merely a figure of speech) cause for rebellious teenagers. The best way to lead is by example is it not? Jesus led a full and sinless life, touching and changing all those that he met (except for maybe Judas). Yet we are supposed to allow a double standard? Please explain your thoughts on this.

@CalmLikeaBomb919:

1. You claim that God can not interfere with free will but perhaps it is not that He can not and that he would not? Is that also a valid probability?
2. God promised didn't promise not to destroy the world, if I remember corectly He promised not to flood the whole world as he did at Noah's time.
3. I'm not quite sure I agree with your statement of religion is "to put fear into you to chain you down..." becuase[from what I understand] you included all religions and I would request that you at least give some support to back your claims.

*
@dboyzero: from what I understand i think this is what you are saying:

1. standard for good and evil is based on societal standards & whether they come from God is debatable.
2. though you don't claim to be righteous, you have the right to question God's laws
3. You would love to have a chat with God
4. we should be our own judge cause God has never been among us and don't know how it is to be human.
5. Jesus is only God's son and not God himself
6. Sorry I don't quite get what you mean by if everyone was 100% evil that everyone is programed not evil
7. It is irresponsible to kill off people when they did not turn out the way God wanted.
8. God was threatened by people uniting adn thus struck them with language barrier: double standard

-//1. standard for good and evil is based on societal standards & whether they come from God is debatable.//-
Society has a standard of right and evil, that is true. As for whether it came from God, my thoughts would be in the moral argument.

-//2. though you don't claim to be righteous, you have the right to question God's laws//-
If that be the case then please, by all means, question His laws. I can try to use my limited understanding to help answer your questions but if you exceed the limit of knowledge that has been graced to me, you may have to talk to the big man himself.

-//3. You would love to have a chat with God//-
The hotline for God is "Prayer". From personal experience I can tell you that it works. From his credibility[another whole discussion if you want to delve deeper] and his promise that He will listen to all our prayer I can tell you that you won't be talking to nothing. There are things that you might want to keep in mind while talking to Him but...I suppose its best if you experience it yourself.

-//4. we should be our own judge cause God has never been among us and don't know how it is to be human.//-
On the contrary God did become flesh [ie. became human] in the form of a man named Jesus Christ. Therefore, "we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin."

-//5. Jesus is only God's son and not God himself//-
Philipians 2:5-6 clearly states that Jesus is God. Lord Jesus Christ asked people to praise God his father yes. However, i don't find this a valid proof that He is not God. You must enlighten me. If anything, Jesus' actions shows the humility of God. Jesus Christ"Who, being in very nature[a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped," He did not ask people to praise Himself even though, as God, He deserves that praise.

Instead, He asked people to praise his father in heaven. God's humility extends far beyond just that. First of all He become a man from the status of God. From a being of supreme power who can snuff out the universe by mere thought to first a helpless babe who can't even feed himself. If that is not humility than it is great love for us who are so small in the universe. Then afterwards living to be punished - death on the cross - not becuase he has sinned but for our sakes that Justice would not be perverted while demonstrating his love for us.

If you are willing to take the punishment for a crime you did nto commit I would be impressed. If you were to go as far as being beaten, spat on and floged so that your muscles are ripped out to the point that white bones can be seen...then i would be very impressed. If you can go as far as enduring all that, carry two huge wooden beams that would be the tool to kill you over long distance, jeered all the way, spat on, mocked and beaten even though you have the power to smite them all in a single breath...I would be extremely impressed. If were were to go as far as enduring all that, hanging naked with a crown of thorns piercing your brows and 8inch nails stabed into your wrist and legs for the purpose of letting you bleed to death. If you can endure all that for crimes that you did nto commit, then words alone can not describe my attitudes and feeling towards you.

Now remember, that is not even half the suffering that Jesus Christ endured. He was betrayed by his own disciple[Judas]. he was denounced by his beloved disciple[peter]. He, from a status of God, came and endured spits, mockery and beating from "insignificant human beings". He, being God, is perfect, all good adn can not stand sin. Now, he bears the sin of the whole world. He, being together with the father sinec before time began, how has his father turn his face away "Eloi Eloi lama sabach fani". And all that, he knew he would endure even before he came to earth to be a man. He lived with this knowledge knowing the horrible death that would befall him for 33 years.

Now you tell me, if this were true and he endured it for you sake and becuase of his love for you, doesnt' He deserves some notice? And I speak an understatement. Where else could you find a God who loves us so much that He would endure all that, for our sakes that we might have life. I, if no one else, would be the first to claim this love that has been offered so freely. If nothing else, his sacrifice in itself is enough to make me a lover of this God. What about you?

-//6. Sorry I don't quite get what you mean by if everyone was 100% evil that everyone is programed not evil//-

-//7. It is irresponsible to kill off people when they did not turn out the way God wanted.//-
Many people know that God is love and this fact is proclaimed very broadly. However, one must also realize that God is Just. Evil can not go unpunished and the punishment for sin is death. God knew the risk when he gave people free will. Now if people still did evil knowing that it was evil, then should they not be punished? Or would you rather let murderers and rapers run free unpunished untouched? God flooded the earth not becuase it didn't turn out His way but becuase he has a sense of Justice within him.

Then you might ask, why doesn't God destroy us? Humans today are very evil and you only need to open the newspaper to prove that point. The answer is because he loves us and is giving us a lifetime to change from our ways and to accept the free gift of salvation. God is delaying judgement so that we may have a chance for life. Christ died for our sins and if we accept Him then our debt[ie. our punishment] would be paid for. That is all he asks, that you accepts His son for all your sins to be paid for. You have a lifetime to choose to do it. Thus at the end of life, don't say God didn't give you a chance. You had one lifetime to do it. And at the end of life, if you still chose to be away from God and shut him out then you will spend eternity without him. If you do choose to accept God you will spend an eternity with him. The choice is yours. What will you do?

-//8. God was threatened by people uniting adn thus struck them with language barrier: double standard//-
If God can snuff out all universe with a single breath, then how can He logically be threatened by people building a single tower? In the beginning God blessed man by telling them to "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground"

However man chose to be rebellious, they said: "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth." Thus God caused a language barrier and scattered them.