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 Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:37 pm
dragon_sword Ok having read all the views I can safely say none of you live in my sountry. This thing about women having it harder or men having it harder is quite relative. People the grass will always look greener on the other side but that does not mean it is. In my country if one wants to cross the road other than at a stop light or pedestrian crossing the drivers will 0.02% of the time stop for a guy whilst that is the percentage that they wont stop for a female. I have tested this: I stood 3m away from a woman wanting to cross the same road. A car came up and did not stop for me to cross but 3m down stopped for her. People have backed up traffic to let women cross the road. Now that is just a small portion; if two women walk through town holding hands or meet in town and hug that is alright; on the other hand two guys do this they are descriminated against for being homosexual (I live in a very small country, small population, homosexuals are hated and descriminated against in many aspects especially music and there are no gay rights) and once clased as gay there is no getting back a social status once gay always gay. Women have none of that, as a guy u have to watch what you say, how u say it, what u wear, how u wear it, where u go, you u go with, etc. Moving on: many people fail to understand that in this sex and money driven world women have the advantage. Please note I am not stereo typing and saying that a woman can't but usually a man has to have all the qualifications necessary to get into a high ranking position, whilst a woman can just have sex with the right person/people. Now, women rule the world! Let me take the shocked looks of your faces. If the most powerful man in the world kills someone he gets off scotch free, do you think if he has a wife and forgets to bring home milk he will sleep in the same bed, no, he will sleep in the couch. Now tell me, if someone has that kind of power over the most powerful man that means that she is most powerful. Please note this is never brought out in public discussions because the shadowed male driven society in which we exist actually has a few women pulling the strings and if widely known more and more women will exercise the privillage and the world as we know it would crumble. I will end with this analogy: Superman's weakness was not kryptonite rather the woman they always used to draw him into a trap where the kriptonite is used. Wow, that is based on a lot of assumptions. I can see where you're coming from, so let me establish the assumptions you are making. 1. You assume that your country is an example typical of the entire world. This is not so. Simply because men seem to have it harder in some areas does not mean that this is true all over. You are correct in saying, however, that it is very relative and depends on the culture you are coming from. 2. You assume that women have none of the social requirements of men (in your country). This seems to be based on homosexuality and it's taboo among your culture. I'm very certain that women have just as much, if not more, restrictions on "what you say, how u say it, what u wear, how u wear it, where u go, you u go with, etc." Could you imagine what would happen if a woman just went out in public in scandalous clothing and started seducing every man she met? Going further, what if she started seducing women, or even kissed one? There is far more to what is expected of women than you probably realize, which makes me guess that you're male. 3. You assume that every woman can sleep her way to the top. Besides the obvious misjudgment of gender concerning how this FURTHER objectifies women and how they can't seem to survive based on merit alone, making it THAT much more difficult for those women who find it morally degrading to do so, this is a fallacy of logic. What about women who are found unattractive? Or are physically unable to perform sexually? Are they just half-persons, and don't count? 4. You assume that every person will let a woman sleep her way to the top. As a man, I find this incredibly offensive. Not every person in a position of power crumbles under a lover's touch, and not every person in power is a man. This is a GROSS oversimplification of the world at large, based largely on too much television drama, in my opinion. 5. You assume that every person in power is controlled by a woman. This fails to take into account those who are women already, of course, and it also fails to take into account those who are separated from, divorced from, or are lacking a wife. "do you think if he has a wife and forgets to bring home milk he will sleep in the same bed, no, he will sleep in the couch." How old are you? This is far from the case, and sounds like something taken from a grade-school story book. Men exist who beat their wives, men exist who make the wives do all the work, and men who exist and live with wonderful spouses who are more than willing to forgive errors of judgment. 6. You assume that simply because a woman has control over the homelife, she has total control over the man. "if someone has that kind of power over the most powerful man that means that she is most powerful." Do you really think that a woman, just because she can make a man sleep on the couch for forgetting milk (which isn't always the case, as I explained above) it means that she can control his personal life as well? All the man has to do (which many have done in the past and will continue to do in the future) is take off and find himself a hotel or a prostitute or both. I doubt that any man would let his wife control his professional life, especially if they've had enough clout and brains to make their way to the top. 7. You assume that the world is controlled by a select few women. "the shadowed male driven society in which we exist actually has a few women pulling the strings and if widely known more and more women will exercise the privillage and the world as we know it would crumble." Can you back this statement up at all? What would it be, the wives of the most powerful men in the world? This is a conspiracy theory, and, like others of its kind, likely has no backing or grounds whatsoever. You seem like you think a bit, but you've got a bit more to do. If you think I've gotten any of this wrong, you're welcome to come and clarify your statements and debate the claims I've made.
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:52 pm
dboyzero dragon_sword Ok having read all the views I can safely say none of you live in my sountry. This thing about women having it harder or men having it harder is quite relative. People the grass will always look greener on the other side but that does not mean it is. In my country if one wants to cross the road other than at a stop light or pedestrian crossing the drivers will 0.02% of the time stop for a guy whilst that is the percentage that they wont stop for a female. I have tested this: I stood 3m away from a woman wanting to cross the same road. A car came up and did not stop for me to cross but 3m down stopped for her. People have backed up traffic to let women cross the road. Now that is just a small portion; if two women walk through town holding hands or meet in town and hug that is alright; on the other hand two guys do this they are descriminated against for being homosexual (I live in a very small country, small population, homosexuals are hated and descriminated against in many aspects especially music and there are no gay rights) and once clased as gay there is no getting back a social status once gay always gay. Women have none of that, as a guy u have to watch what you say, how u say it, what u wear, how u wear it, where u go, you u go with, etc. Moving on: many people fail to understand that in this sex and money driven world women have the advantage. Please note I am not stereo typing and saying that a woman can't but usually a man has to have all the qualifications necessary to get into a high ranking position, whilst a woman can just have sex with the right person/people. Now, women rule the world! Let me take the shocked looks of your faces. If the most powerful man in the world kills someone he gets off scotch free, do you think if he has a wife and forgets to bring home milk he will sleep in the same bed, no, he will sleep in the couch. Now tell me, if someone has that kind of power over the most powerful man that means that she is most powerful. Please note this is never brought out in public discussions because the shadowed male driven society in which we exist actually has a few women pulling the strings and if widely known more and more women will exercise the privillage and the world as we know it would crumble. I will end with this analogy: Superman's weakness was not kryptonite rather the woman they always used to draw him into a trap where the kriptonite is used. Wow, that is based on a lot of assumptions. I can see where you're coming from, so let me establish the assumptions you are making. 1. You assume that your country is an example typical of the entire world. This is not so. Simply because men seem to have it harder in some areas does not mean that this is true all over. You are correct in saying, however, that it is very relative and depends on the culture you are coming from. 2. You assume that women have none of the social requirements of men (in your country). This seems to be based on homosexuality and it's taboo among your culture. I'm very certain that women have just as much, if not more, restrictions on "what you say, how u say it, what u wear, how u wear it, where u go, you u go with, etc." Could you imagine what would happen if a woman just went out in public in scandalous clothing and started seducing every man she met? Going further, what if she started seducing women, or even kissed one? There is far more to what is expected of women than you probably realize, which makes me guess that you're male. 3. You assume that every woman can sleep her way to the top. Besides the obvious misjudgment of gender concerning how this FURTHER objectifies women and how they can't seem to survive based on merit alone, making it THAT much more difficult for those women who find it morally degrading to do so, this is a fallacy of logic. What about women who are found unattractive? Or are physically unable to perform sexually? Are they just half-persons, and don't count? 4. You assume that every person will let a woman sleep her way to the top. As a man, I find this incredibly offensive. Not every person in a position of power crumbles under a lover's touch, and not every person in power is a man. This is a GROSS oversimplification of the world at large, based largely on too much television drama, in my opinion. 5. You assume that every person in power is controlled by a woman. This fails to take into account those who are women already, of course, and it also fails to take into account those who are separated from, divorced from, or are lacking a wife. "do you think if he has a wife and forgets to bring home milk he will sleep in the same bed, no, he will sleep in the couch." How old are you? This is far from the case, and sounds like something taken from a grade-school story book. Men exist who beat their wives, men exist who make the wives do all the work, and men who exist and live with wonderful spouses who are more than willing to forgive errors of judgment. 6. You assume that simply because a woman has control over the homelife, she has total control over the man. "if someone has that kind of power over the most powerful man that means that she is most powerful." Do you really think that a woman, just because she can make a man sleep on the couch for forgetting milk (which isn't always the case, as I explained above) it means that she can control his personal life as well? All the man has to do (which many have done in the past and will continue to do in the future) is take off and find himself a hotel or a prostitute or both. I doubt that any man would let his wife control his professional life, especially if they've had enough clout and brains to make their way to the top. 7. You assume that the world is controlled by a select few women. "the shadowed male driven society in which we exist actually has a few women pulling the strings and if widely known more and more women will exercise the privillage and the world as we know it would crumble." Can you back this statement up at all? What would it be, the wives of the most powerful men in the world? This is a conspiracy theory, and, like others of its kind, likely has no backing or grounds whatsoever. You seem like you think a bit, but you've got a bit more to do. If you think I've gotten any of this wrong, you're welcome to come and clarify your statements and debate the claims I've made. Well first of all I did make it clear I was speaking of my country and did not ever state that it was a fair representation of the world and it was indeed my bad by using the word *world* throughout my debate or just *women* making it general. Yes and it is quite relative to the society, that was will and always be the case as cultures do differ. Now you need to clarify the statement you made of my assuption that women have none of the social requirements of men (in my country). I don't quite understand what you translated to get that. Obviously if a woman just went out in public in scandalous clothing and started seducing every man she met she would be judged harshly. That however is an extreme and that would apply to both sexes in such an extreme situation. Now kissing another woman is also relative to how, where and many other factors which is best not to go into because of major technicallities. What I basically wanted to state about the whole: "what you say, how u say it, what u wear, how u wear it, where u go, you u go with, etc." is that a woman has to basically go to the extreme with lesbianism before she is judged as such (in my country) where as a man has to walk a straight line and the any time he slips or is not careful he is deemed as gay for the rest of his life. In that case would that not mean in this situation that more is expected of a man in this particvular instance? Yes I am male. Now I never stated that every woman can sleep her way to the top. "Please note I am not stereo typing and saying that a woman can't but usually a man has to have all the qualifications necessary to get into a high ranking position" Did you not read that part sir? My error was not stating: (In my country). Objectification of a woman is not always as evil encarnate as you would presume; some women (in my country) use that to their advantage, which is why we have some women here in high ranking positions that got there by pleased the right people. The equivalent to this for a male is the fact that we all are considered sex driven dogs who only objectify women. If the shoe fits wear it and use your title against the ones that branded that same title (women). Some women are to blame for the same men becoming dogs who objectify them and because there are a few men who dont want to prove them wrong go out of their ways to prove them right (in my country). Now not all women are objectified hence not all have the option of sleeping their way to the top and not all women do that. I never said they did either you may have skipped the first part of that arguement. The purpose of that statement was to show that some women(in my country) can use the objectification to their advantage whether it be immoral or not, some women see men as a means not an ends so they do not mind as long as they get what they want. Who ever can't or won't then to them the statement obviously does not apply. I never said that everyone will let a woman sleep her way to the top, as said before I was merely stating the probability or the fact that that option exists for some. You will be amazed at many in power who will crumble to a lovers touch, it has happened many times and it can happen again but I am not saying that all will. I never made a reference to women in power simply because I already stated women rule the world, redundancy was not necessary. Now, that analogy I gave is applicable to only those to whom the cap fits, those who are not fit elsewhere. I do not watch television anymore 1.5 years so far and when I did, dramas were what I hated most of all so your opinion is just that; opinion. What sir did you translate into "You assume that every person in power is controlled by a woman". What does "if" imply once used in a statement. I never said that the most powerful man was married, I merely suggested that if he was married those were possibilities that surrounded him. I am 20 years old sir and I know of spousal abuse but you assume only men beat their spouses. What about women who beat their husbands, what about women who run their husbands life like a dictator, a possibility can exist either way. Now I never said that a woman who runs the home runs the man and depoends on how you look at it though. I mean she may not be able to control him as in when she says jump he jumps, as a man you should know women are alot more cunning than that. She may just be a driving force in his life via suggestions and support and she may use that to her advantage and for him it may not always be a bad thing. How many wives do their husbands accounting and then suggests the ways in which to increase the profit margin. That in a sense may be considered a measure of control. The world is not balck and white and 2 dimensional so many probabilities exist and I am not the only one making assumptions. You seem to have men painted as robots. Men despite, their intellect, have aspects to their being that influence them: 1.The logic which as you know is like the major part of a man's psyche. 2.The physical which is just an aspect which in modern times is bearing less weight. 3.The emotional, here we have something that most men try to aviod or ignore orrun from. Men have emotions and as much as we try to get away from them we are still quite vulnerable to them which makes it possible for a woman be a part of our lives. It in some cases it may be a docking bay for them. So despite a man's intellect he may still be controlled or manipulated or used as many men today are used for their wealth and influence and once it is his wife doing it, society does not really say much about it hence the conspiracy theory as you called it will have no ground nor backing if it is a wife. I am not saying that all powerful men have wives or are being controlled it is a possibility that some are. You do make some good points and no offense to anyone else, you seem to be making the most sense so I will challenge you to continue the debate and contest my points.
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:06 pm
With the conditionals, your argument seems much more clear, and for that I thank you.
However, the arguments you make now contradict those that you made earlier, probably due to such conditionals applying to your country. Yes, the possibility exists that women can (to an extent) control men, and there also exists the possibility for men to control women. Your original post made it seem as if EVERY man in power was controlled by the woman at home (which in itself wrongly assumes that every wife of a political figure is a homemaker), and that therefore women are the group in power, ruling the world as it were. Society certainly doesn't talk about it a great deal, most likely due to the lack of credibility the theory has, and the lack of evidence wold make it a difficult viewpoint to defend.
I concur that men are certainly not robots, and my apologies for coming off that way. I only meant to convey that men are currently still the dominant gender of the world, as evidenced by disparity between positions of power, paychecks vs. those of male counterparts, and opportunities for education.
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:11 am
dboyzero With the conditionals, your argument seems much more clear, and for that I thank you. However, the arguments you make now contradict those that you made earlier, probably due to such conditionals applying to your country. Yes, the possibility exists that women can (to an extent) control men, and there also exists the possibility for men to control women. Your original post made it seem as if EVERY man in power was controlled by the woman at home (which in itself wrongly assumes that every wife of a political figure is a homemaker), and that therefore women are the group in power, ruling the world as it were. Society certainly doesn't talk about it a great deal, most likely due to the lack of credibility the theory has, and the lack of evidence wold make it a difficult viewpoint to defend. I concur that men are certainly not robots, and my apologies for coming off that way. I only meant to convey that men are currently still the dominant gender of the world, as evidenced by disparity between positions of power, paychecks vs. those of male counterparts, and opportunities for education. Question though, have you ever noticed the reason why men have been able to remian dominant is beacuase they are able to kep their emotions out of the mix? I have heard the throry beforew but I am yet to prove it. I have studied some women on a minor scale to verify the statement Chris Rock made in his last stand up comedy that "Women hate women". In a way that is so true. The way their eyes square off as if it is a competition, and the way after one glance a woman can give an almost accurate judgement of the other in terms of attire ands some other factors. I magine that they were in control. Would we be better off or worst off with emotions in the mix?
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:34 am
i think that she just asked your feeling toward the topic, not a novel
I feel that it is easier to be a guy because there is less stress. I know from friends(girls) that it is difficult to deal with boobs without people making fun of them, or their periods or hair growth. I know some girl who has a mustache. It is really creepy but I know people who hang out with her because it could be very stressful. Guys is easy because it is only hair growth and guy-to-guy teasing.
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:30 pm
Heck guys use girls, sure some girls use guys but still. There are a lot of sexist guys that I'd just love to wring my hands around their necks until they turn cold for some of the comments they make. Hell it's not just our breasts, it's our butts we have to watch as well, some of us have to becareful while they run so they wont have any boob bounce for guys to stare at. stare There doesn't seem to be many guys any more that'll like a girl not for their looks but for their personality only. It just sickens me when I see a guy using his girlfriend as though she's just a toy. Hell I loved a guy and he used me, I trusted him and he broke my heart, I don't HAVE any thing left to love with because of that fricken jerk. Hell he then went and asked out one of my friends who later broke up with him and when she did he told me that he hated me. Not much longer he asked one of my other friends out, thankfully she said no but he's still pushing and she has a boyfriend. It's just not right how guys treat girls these days, even before we became "equal".
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:17 pm
luckylee218 Heck guys use girls, sure some girls use guys but still. There are a lot of sexist guys that I'd just love to wring my hands around their necks until they turn cold for some of the comments they make. Hell it's not just our breasts, it's our butts we have to watch as well, some of us have to becareful while they run so they wont have any boob bounce for guys to stare at. stare There doesn't seem to be many guys any more that'll like a girl not for their looks but for their personality only. It just sickens me when I see a guy using his girlfriend as though she's just a toy. Hell I loved a guy and he used me, I trusted him and he broke my heart, I don't HAVE any thing left to love with because of that fricken jerk. Hell he then went and asked out one of my friends who later broke up with him and when she did he told me that he hated me. Not much longer he asked one of my other friends out, thankfully she said no but he's still pushing and she has a boyfriend. It's just not right how guys treat girls these days, even before we became "equal". It is quite interesting that you state it like that because in actuality some girls use men just not in such a simple manner. Now I am not bragging or anything but I am not the stupidest guy around and when I was in high school, the girl I was involved with at that point in time I was in love with her for like 3 years prior our getting together. She endulged me in a relationship just to leech off of me for my keen eye in the area of sciences. She used me to get better marks in lab reports and at the same time caused my grades to slip. I was blinded by love and could not see this. She used to cheat on me and I only found out after we broke up. She as had like 3 boyfrinds since then and that was like 3 years ago, and recently she has been doing the same thing to another guy who she has now left for another one, who will be the next victim. Men are not the only ones who are jerks and manipulative @#!$%^&*)(^#$%^*. So men have the same issue as well so don't make it seem so once sided.
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:07 pm
I'm positive that both sides have their good and bad members, as we're all only human in the end. We all can agree that no side is wholly benevolent nor is either side wholly malicious, correct?
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Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:07 am
Well I think both sides have their good points and bad points, right now I am just going to talk about things reffering to the woman's world (my own personal opinions, meaning that this doesn't apply for everyone) and I am not saying much about a guy's life bacuse I personally don't know much about it and therefore I can't possibly say much about it. Now before I begin I just want to make it clear, I don't think that every men use women, there are some who do it and some who don't. I know for a fact that there have been some women who use guys to their personal gain (example, some of them will be their 'girlfriend' for a while and then take all of the guy's money. This is just an example of something that could happen)
Now we girls do have to deal with several other problems:
1. Period which let me tell you by experience is really annoying and hurtfull stare
2. We are the ones that will get pregnant if anything happens (I do recognize that sometimes it is women's fault)
3. Some women can be extremelly nasty creatures. I have seen a lot of girls being mean to others and insulting them because of the way they look, dress, walk, etc or just because they don't like them or because they are 'stealing their guy'. Meaning that a girl might be harrased nor only by girls but also by girls (although most guys tend to harrass at a sexual level, again not all of them) I haven't say that guys don't do the same but really it is easier to find girls doing that than guys. To me (and this is a personal opinion) guys tend to be more carefree and they don't particularly care about those kinds of things (and this may vary depending on the situation)
4. It is true that this is nobody's fault women are more likely (meaning that it is often but not always) to be emotional unstable, at one point they can be all happy like and at the next they will cry for no apparent reason (I can't find any support for this at the moment though but I could try to find one if need it)
5. Nowdays, society cares a lot about having good looks, etc a guy have a bit more advantage in this (most of the time) since they don't have to worry about shaving, boobs and/or buttssizes or stuff like that.
6. If a girl wants to play a sport like m... let's say hockey she will most likely be told that 'hockey is a man's sport, and girls shouldn't be playing this game' blah blah blah I have also had this kind of situation happen to me, I wanted to play soccer with my guy friends and they just told me that I couldn't play beause 'I was a girl'.... stare what a good reasoning (notice the sarcasm) It is true we might get hurt by playing that type of game but that is our own bussiness same goes for guys! as some people say 'no pain, no game' So what's the difference? Then what about a guy in cooking lessons? Isn't that considered a more womanly activity? then why can they do it and not being critiziced nor neglected and we can't? (Notice I dn't think cooking is a girl's activity only, to me a guy that cooks is awesome! I just used that example because it seemed to be one of the common ones)
Now just to clarify I'm not sure how hard is the life of a guy and all of these examples that I gave do not apply for everyone sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. And I do realize that there are guys that are treated unjustly and who are being 'used' by women. I just wanted to say some stuff about what I particularly think a woman's life is (again it doesn't apply for all of us) and I don't want anyone to think that we, women are the poor litlle victims of the story. I also want to apologize for my horrible grammar and my way to explain things, English is not my first languaje (I am still in the process of learning it) and I often have problems expressing my thoughts so if there is any confussion as to what I was trying to say please tell me and I will do my best to re-word it as clear as possible. And I know this is already been clarified but just in case, yes I am a girl (only 17 years old meaning that I still need to learn more about people and life) I do not want people to feel insulted or anything by this post (I don't think that I have said anything insulting to anyone but just in case) so if any of you felt insulting or anything similar I apologize for that since it wasn't my intention to do it.
And yes dboyzero I agree with what you said neither side is wholly benevolent nor malicious since this depends on the person's morality and sadly in this world and date the level of hipocrecy and selfishness has increased meaning that people (some of them) care more about themselves that about others and some of them will do everything in their power to get what they want, be it good or bad.
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Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:48 am
dboyzero I'm positive that both sides have their good and bad members, as we're all only human in the end. We all can agree that no side is wholly benevolent nor is either side wholly malicious, correct? Agreed......The world in itself is going to hell in a hand basket.
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Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:00 am
Sidenote: women tend to be more emotional (and thereby emotionally unstable at times) due to higher levels of estrogen in their systems. Men tend to be more aggressive due to higher levels of testosterone. It's a biological make-up thing that doesn't hold true in every case, but these are the trends that human biochemical systems follow.
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Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:03 pm
dboyzero Sidenote: women tend to be more emotional (and thereby emotionally unstable at times) due to higher levels of estrogen in their systems. Men tend to be more aggressive due to higher levels of testosterone. It's a biological make-up thing that doesn't hold true in every case, but these are the trends that human biochemical systems follow. Yeah but sometimes those levels are off balence or nto the way they should be.... meaning men with breasts and girls with mustaches, all they have to do is go to the docters and have that fixed.
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Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:51 pm
Assuming that you believe that it's something that needs fixing. wink
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Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:18 pm
We cant blame the major problems on the endocrine system differnces of men and women. Aggresive and moody are not the only things that comes from both sides to cause this chaos.
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:49 am
Hmmm... as a MtF transsexual I'd say that overall it's probably easier to be female in this society (that isn't my reason for seeking transition, I'm doing that because that's who I am). I say this because there are a great many expectations placed on men that aren't placed on women.
In general: Although our society has progressed a bit there are still a great many foolish expectations that are placed on the male population. It's mostly moved behind the scenes, but the expectation that the man must be the primary bread winner for his family is still around. This creates stress on a man in a relationship situation where his girlfriend/wife makes more money than he does. She may be happy to be the provider, but the man (even if he hides it) will often feel he isn't doing as much as he should and will subsequently push himself harder than he needs to (and harder than is healthy). This creates an even greater stress and just works to shorten his lifespan.
Socially: In social situations society expects woman to be more active socially, while men are expected not only to show but to follow a more independent path. I personally call this the "Lone Wolf" syndrome. Men are expected to survive on their own strengths alone, and are ridiculed when they fail. This is in part why most men can't ask for directions when they're on a trip. There really isn't any shame in it, but society is disapproving of a man who can't do for himself in any situation (even one that's extremely dangerous to face alone).
Physical attributes: Here I have to admit that women seem to have harder expectations placed on them. Corporate marketing has raised a throughly unrealistic and wholly unhealthy image of beauty that society expects all women to meet. More recently things have been changing that have begun to crack this distorted mirror that society expects us to look at. It used to be that if, gods forbid, a woman ordered anything but a salad in a restaurant (especially if she was on a date) she would be looked at very strangely (at the least). Even today there are women who believe that they have to as skinny as they can be in order to be beautiful. In one of my other guilds someone asked what others thought about this movement of women who are each trying to be skinny enough to fit into a size zero dress. Not only is getting to this size extremely unhealthy, but maintaining it requires eating fewer calories than the healthy minimum for a child. And the result, a female version of Jack Skellington. Can this be healthy at all? Absolutely not.
I'll probably post more later (if I remember).
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