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 Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 6:36 pm
weebler:
Exaggerate. I think it's highly unlikely that that many people deserved killing.
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 11:52 am
minka18 alright this has not been my day for debate. so, yes it depends on which religion your in, what you believe. but if you read the bible without using the matter of religion you will see that there is book of blah, letter to blah. and so on.. so i guess you can say is one book if your religion and your believe says so. Humans are indeed stupid creatures. intelligent creatures just because the other little animals in this world aren't able to think like we do. and well, mature... who is to say if your mature enough or not?, your mother?. your friends?. i mean if you ask your friends some of they will still say your an immature from time to time. therefore your not mature as a whole. and if you ask your mother, you will always be her little baby. so yes i'm calling humans stupid(i'm alien...jk), no offense but we all are. Don't worry about it, we're all here to just discuss in a friendly manner, no grudges, right? In any case, yes, humans are pretty stupid and immature when they want to be. But the question remains whether or not they are so stupid and immature that they need a book to explain things to them. There are plenty of people who get along fine (this becomes a value set, however, so opinions on "fine" may vary) without the good book, or any sort of book at all. You stated that "we are never mature enough or intelligent enough to understand things through reason a logic," and then questioned the frame of reference for being "mature." To that end, I'm going to be defining "mature" for this case to be able to live emotionally and financially stable, able to make large (in terms of life-impact) decisions on one's own by carefully considering the costs and benefits of each option. With that definition, pretty much every person over the age of 17 or so (it depends on the person, of course) falls into that category to varying degrees. PS: my apologies for a couple reasons. 1, I'm being a bit long-winded, but the reason for that is coming up. 2, I'm using you as a warm-up as I ease back into this subforum; I've been busy lately and have been out of practice. There's a certain someone in the "Believe" thread that I need to get back to, and I need to be in the best of shape.
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:48 pm
wow a lot has happened o.o...well I don't agree with many things minka18 said...I believe that most humans are evil (some are most than others, and others learned how to supress their evil emotions such as hate, envy, and the like it really depends on selfcontrol) but they aren't dumb or anything...it could be that they misundersand the meanings of some things or simply took the wrong decisions which is completely different.
And yeah Ultra Sarah I believe he had killed many animals aswell...that is basically the ony thing I can't understad why it had to happen...and no his family wasn't the only people who where saved on that flod...there where other people apart from them. But as I said before the reason all that people got killed was mainly because things where totally out of control and impossible to ammend, in other words it was a very chaotic situation a lot worse than the situation we are experiencing nowadays. Just imagine a country without rules, everybody does whatever he/she wants and the stronger will survive no matter the means he/she uses be it a kid or an adult.
And well I am not saying that you should read the Bible and do everything as it says...that book exist mainly so that people can have a bit of an understanding about the events from the past, God, angels, demons and the like. And all this is to help you choose which side you want to be on, again in the end it will all depend on what you decide. I can't understand some of the things that the book says, and sometimes I might not agree with everything exacly but just because of that it doesn't mean that you are going to hell (I don't even think that place exist), what I have learned is basically that you should live your life ina 'sane' way. Meaning that you shouldn't harm others, but you shouldn't ignore a person who needs your help.
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 11:39 am
A lot of people would argue about what is and isn't sane. xd Mostly the people who aren't sane!
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 4:56 pm
Sane is subjective, and based on the society you live in. Bring someone from two hundred years ago to present time, and they'd think we were all insane, and vice versa. Who's to say what's truly sane or not, or what's right and wrong?
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 5:20 pm
Ultra Sarah We can all agree that killing is evil right? Well, God doesn't seem to agree. I am not a Satanist, I'm without a religion (atheist). But this is messed up. Your thoughts? Sorry, I'm new, I don't mean to intrude upon your discussion. But if I may add? Killing...G-d doesn't specifically deem killing evil. He deems murder evil, killing straight out of cold blood. And it's wrong only if done by human or beastly hands. Therefore, when G-d kills, He has every right to kill, and should not therefore be labeled as 'evil.' He, being the Creator and Sustainer, would have any and every right to throw away a disobedient and inherently sinful creation.
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:14 pm
Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah We can all agree that killing is evil right? Well, God doesn't seem to agree. I am not a Satanist, I'm without a religion (atheist). But this is messed up. Your thoughts? Sorry, I'm new, I don't mean to intrude upon your discussion. But if I may add? Killing...G-d doesn't specifically deem killing evil. He deems murder evil, killing straight out of cold blood. And it's wrong only if done by human or beastly hands. Therefore, when G-d kills, He has every right to kill, and should not therefore be labeled as 'evil.' He, being the Creator and Sustainer, would have any and every right to throw away a disobedient and inherently sinful creation. So the all knowing God made mistakes? This doesn't add up ... Like I think I've said before ... is a mother allowed to kill her own children?
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:33 pm
Ultra Sarah Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah We can all agree that killing is evil right? Well, God doesn't seem to agree. I am not a Satanist, I'm without a religion (atheist). But this is messed up. Your thoughts? Sorry, I'm new, I don't mean to intrude upon your discussion. But if I may add? Killing...G-d doesn't specifically deem killing evil. He deems murder evil, killing straight out of cold blood. And it's wrong only if done by human or beastly hands. Therefore, when G-d kills, He has every right to kill, and should not therefore be labeled as 'evil.' He, being the Creator and Sustainer, would have any and every right to throw away a disobedient and inherently sinful creation. So the all knowing God made mistakes? This doesn't add up ... Like I think I've said before ... is a mother allowed to kill her own children? Uh...when did I say He made a mistake? Just because His creation rebelled doesn't mean He made a mistake. He gave us choice, free will if you'd like, and it's our mistake. And to answer your question... I say no, because G-d is ultimately the Creator and only He decides when people die, and that's why murder is a sin. But other Christians say it a free choice that G-d gives us. I don't believe that's correct, or at the very least we can make that choice, but we have to face the consequences just as others who kill people do.
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 11:25 am
Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah We can all agree that killing is evil right? Well, God doesn't seem to agree. I am not a Satanist, I'm without a religion (atheist). But this is messed up. Your thoughts? Sorry, I'm new, I don't mean to intrude upon your discussion. But if I may add? Killing...G-d doesn't specifically deem killing evil. He deems murder evil, killing straight out of cold blood. And it's wrong only if done by human or beastly hands. Therefore, when G-d kills, He has every right to kill, and should not therefore be labeled as 'evil.' He, being the Creator and Sustainer, would have any and every right to throw away a disobedient and inherently sinful creation. So the all knowing God made mistakes? This doesn't add up ... Like I think I've said before ... is a mother allowed to kill her own children? Uh...when did I say He made a mistake? Just because His creation rebelled doesn't mean He made a mistake. He gave us choice, free will if you'd like, and it's our mistake. And to answer your question... I say no, because G-d is ultimately the Creator and only He decides when people die, and that's why murder is a sin. But other Christians say it a free choice that G-d gives us. I don't believe that's correct, or at the very least we can make that choice, but we have to face the consequences just as others who kill people do. so you are saying god is not omi-scient but omny potent
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 2:02 pm
dreams into nights yami Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah We can all agree that killing is evil right? Well, God doesn't seem to agree. I am not a Satanist, I'm without a religion (atheist). But this is messed up. Your thoughts? Sorry, I'm new, I don't mean to intrude upon your discussion. But if I may add? Killing...G-d doesn't specifically deem killing evil. He deems murder evil, killing straight out of cold blood. And it's wrong only if done by human or beastly hands. Therefore, when G-d kills, He has every right to kill, and should not therefore be labeled as 'evil.' He, being the Creator and Sustainer, would have any and every right to throw away a disobedient and inherently sinful creation. So the all knowing God made mistakes? This doesn't add up ... Like I think I've said before ... is a mother allowed to kill her own children? Uh...when did I say He made a mistake? Just because His creation rebelled doesn't mean He made a mistake. He gave us choice, free will if you'd like, and it's our mistake. And to answer your question... I say no, because G-d is ultimately the Creator and only He decides when people die, and that's why murder is a sin. But other Christians say it a free choice that G-d gives us. I don't believe that's correct, or at the very least we can make that choice, but we have to face the consequences just as others who kill people do. so you are saying god is not omi-scient but omny potent Oh no. G-d is omniscient as well as omipotent and omnipresent. Otherwise He wouldn't really be G-d. But you see, even though He knew we would rebel, He chose to give us free will because creating a mindless follower would be pointless. Any god could make someone love him. G-d chose to let us choose whether or not to love and follow Him, because otherwise it wouldn't be real love and worship.
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:38 pm
Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah We can all agree that killing is evil right? Well, God doesn't seem to agree. I am not a Satanist, I'm without a religion (atheist). But this is messed up. Your thoughts? Sorry, I'm new, I don't mean to intrude upon your discussion. But if I may add? Killing...G-d doesn't specifically deem killing evil. He deems murder evil, killing straight out of cold blood. And it's wrong only if done by human or beastly hands. Therefore, when G-d kills, He has every right to kill, and should not therefore be labeled as 'evil.' He, being the Creator and Sustainer, would have any and every right to throw away a disobedient and inherently sinful creation. So the all knowing God made mistakes? This doesn't add up ... Like I think I've said before ... is a mother allowed to kill her own children? Uh...when did I say He made a mistake? Just because His creation rebelled doesn't mean He made a mistake. He gave us choice, free will if you'd like, and it's our mistake. And to answer your question... I say no, because G-d is ultimately the Creator and only He decides when people die, and that's why murder is a sin. But other Christians say it a free choice that G-d gives us. I don't believe that's correct, or at the very least we can make that choice, but we have to face the consequences just as others who kill people do. He made the mistake of making people who would "rebel". He seems pretty terrible. "I say you die, you die and you die. Now. And you will die in a terrible flood, drowning to death."
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:49 pm
Being omniscient, he knew that people would make the choice not to worship him, so is he really in the right to kill or punish people when he already knows the final result? It's not even really free will or choice when you get down to it, because, being omniscient, he's already got the whole thing planned out and already knows what choices you're going to make.
It's because of this reason that the concept of Hell and eternal torment is flawed. In order to be an omniscient, omnipotent, AND benevolent deity, there's no logic behind him being wrathful or judgemental. He already knew what was going to happen, and everything is already under his control. You can only punish people for what you can't control, in hopes of preventing that behavior later or from other people. This is the entire point of punishment, aversion therapy. However, you can't punish what you've caused to happen, since the perpetrators had no part in it.
All in all, you cannot believe in an omnipotent and omniscient deity and still believe in free will. Furthermore, you can't believe in an omnipotent and omniscient deity and still believe said deity is judgemental or wrathful, since both emotions only occur when one is not omniscient or omnipotent.
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:26 am
dboyzero Being omniscient, he knew that people would make the choice not to worship him, so is he really in the right to kill or punish people when he already knows the final result? It's not even really free will or choice when you get down to it, because, being omniscient, he's already got the whole thing planned out and already knows what choices you're going to make. It's because of this reason that the concept of Hell and eternal torment is flawed. In order to be an omniscient, omnipotent, AND benevolent deity, there's no logic behind him being wrathful or judgemental. He already knew what was going to happen, and everything is already under his control. You can only punish people for what you can't control, in hopes of preventing that behavior later or from other people. This is the entire point of punishment, aversion therapy. However, you can't punish what you've caused to happen, since the perpetrators had no part in it. All in all, you cannot believe in an omnipotent and omniscient deity and still believe in free will. Furthermore, you can't believe in an omnipotent and omniscient deity and still believe said deity is judgemental or wrathful, since both emotions only occur when one is not omniscient or omnipotent. Knowing things are going to happen and controlling them are two seperate things. I can know my little sister is going to take my hair brush, but that doesn't mean I make her. She has the choice whether or not to, but she still does it. And punishing someone after you've given them free will isn't contradictory either. He doesn't allow for the opposite choice without consequences, but He still lets us make it because otherwise it's not fair and we're just mindless drones who don't love Him because of real love. The other choice has consequences He warns us about over and over again, He constantly tells us about it, warns us, He does everything He can to make sure we don't choose that path, short of making the decision for us. So you really can't blame Him when He's told you over and over and over again and you just choose not to listen. If your parents tell you that you can't go to a party with alcohol, or you'll never get to see this person who invited you again, and let you make the decision, you've been warned and should know better.
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:31 am
Ultra Sarah Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah We can all agree that killing is evil right? Well, God doesn't seem to agree. I am not a Satanist, I'm without a religion (atheist). But this is messed up. Your thoughts? Sorry, I'm new, I don't mean to intrude upon your discussion. But if I may add? Killing...G-d doesn't specifically deem killing evil. He deems murder evil, killing straight out of cold blood. And it's wrong only if done by human or beastly hands. Therefore, when G-d kills, He has every right to kill, and should not therefore be labeled as 'evil.' He, being the Creator and Sustainer, would have any and every right to throw away a disobedient and inherently sinful creation. So the all knowing God made mistakes? This doesn't add up ... Like I think I've said before ... is a mother allowed to kill her own children? Uh...when did I say He made a mistake? Just because His creation rebelled doesn't mean He made a mistake. He gave us choice, free will if you'd like, and it's our mistake. And to answer your question... I say no, because G-d is ultimately the Creator and only He decides when people die, and that's why murder is a sin. But other Christians say it a free choice that G-d gives us. I don't believe that's correct, or at the very least we can make that choice, but we have to face the consequences just as others who kill people do. He made the mistake of making people who would "rebel". He seems pretty terrible. "I say you die, you die and you die. Now. And you will die in a terrible flood, drowning to death." Doesn't seem like His mistake. Seems like ours. Obviously, He didn't just kill them without reason. He sent the flood because everyone was disgusting, rebellious, murdering, sinful, and cursing His name beyond which had ever been seen. These were inherently evil people who had no right to live after rejecting and cursing the Almighty G-d of everything. He sent them Noah, who did tell them about it. They obviously had an opportunity to repent, considering it took Noah an insanely long amount of time to build the ark. It's not like He sent one every again. It's obviously a very extreme case, that's only going to outdone at the end times when He just gets fed up with people who don't listen to what He's plainly put out there for thousands and thousands of years. (You know, instead of blaming G-d for death, you really should be blaming Satan. Maybe Satan hasn't outright killed that many people, he's killed everyone who's ever died. He's the reason there is death. Without him, God would never have had to kill anyone)
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:56 am
Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart Ultra Sarah We can all agree that killing is evil right? Well, God doesn't seem to agree. I am not a Satanist, I'm without a religion (atheist). But this is messed up. Your thoughts? Sorry, I'm new, I don't mean to intrude upon your discussion. But if I may add? Killing...G-d doesn't specifically deem killing evil. He deems murder evil, killing straight out of cold blood. And it's wrong only if done by human or beastly hands. Therefore, when G-d kills, He has every right to kill, and should not therefore be labeled as 'evil.' He, being the Creator and Sustainer, would have any and every right to throw away a disobedient and inherently sinful creation. So the all knowing God made mistakes? This doesn't add up ... Like I think I've said before ... is a mother allowed to kill her own children? Uh...when did I say He made a mistake? Just because His creation rebelled doesn't mean He made a mistake. He gave us choice, free will if you'd like, and it's our mistake. And to answer your question... I say no, because G-d is ultimately the Creator and only He decides when people die, and that's why murder is a sin. But other Christians say it a free choice that G-d gives us. I don't believe that's correct, or at the very least we can make that choice, but we have to face the consequences just as others who kill people do. He made the mistake of making people who would "rebel". He seems pretty terrible. "I say you die, you die and you die. Now. And you will die in a terrible flood, drowning to death." Doesn't seem like His mistake. Seems like ours. Obviously, He didn't just kill them without reason. He sent the flood because everyone was disgusting, rebellious, murdering, sinful, and cursing His name beyond which had ever been seen. These were inherently evil people who had no right to live after rejecting and cursing the Almighty G-d of everything. He sent them Noah, who did tell them about it. They obviously had an opportunity to repent, considering it took Noah an insanely long amount of time to build the ark. It's not like He sent one every again. It's obviously a very extreme case, that's only going to outdone at the end times when He just gets fed up with people who don't listen to what He's plainly put out there for thousands and thousands of years. (You know, instead of blaming G-d for death, you really should be blaming Satan. Maybe Satan hasn't outright killed that many people, he's killed everyone who's ever died. He's the reason there is death. Without him, God would never have had to kill anyone) Death is okay. Murder is unacceptable. If he was all-knowing, he would know that they would rebel, and that the people wouldn't stop sinning before Noah could finish the ark.
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