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 Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:55 am
@ Ace: Yes my views are traditional but they simply follow the teachings of the Church. The Church hasn't changed their views on marriage even with all the cultural changes therefore keep their standpoint at a traditional one.
The Church refers to the man and women's role in the family as the "brain and heart" to signify that they complement each other. They each depend on each other in certain aspects where one spouse contributes in a different way than the other. We all know men and women think differently. That difference is needed to balance out the other's stand point from the perspective of someone of the opposite sex. If you have a same sex marriage you don't exactly have that balance regardless of orientation. Just to clarify this, the organ that I stated in no way represents their role in the house because it is different with each family. <.< I could have just as easily said liver and lungs. I simply used the example my theology book used.
I'd also like to note that I pity a child in a same sex relationship. Aside from the extreme confusion and needed explanations, today's world still isn't as accepting as one would think. Idk how it is over there in Virginia but here in Miami there is still an incredible amount of homophobia despite the rather large gay community. Daily in the halls of my school I constantly here "Bro! Your such a f**!" "Dude thats so gay!" I can't stand to imagine the amount of harassment and embarrassment a child of a same sex relationship would have to endure on a daily basis. Thats why I don't support gay marriage on both a legal and religious standpoint. If a gay couple must have a civil union because they want marital rights, please don't bring a child into the equation. That just further complicates things.
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:08 am
Well if everyone thinks like that it'll just stay that way forever. And then we'll have a lot of people unhappy because they can't lead the lives they choose rather than having a lot of people unhappy because two gay people are leading their own lives and not hurting anyone, and people opposed to it can't just mind their own business.
I've never seen a child grow up to be unbalanced or maladjusted because of his or her gay upbringing. There are far less qualified people to be parents who are straight, but we still allow them to have children.
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:41 am
@ April: Well considering thats how the Church teaches it, I'd want it to stay that way forever because thats how they teach its meant to be.
Who's to say they're not hurting anyone? Physically no. Spiritually yes. A gay couple getting married kills the relationship between them and God (for it is a mortal sin) because they don't love Him enough to respect His wishes. Now if the gay couple is in no way religious, that's their business and on their conscience. I'm not going to shove my religion down someone's throat. I simply refuse to believe a married gay couple can say that they are devout Christians because it doesn't work that way. Being a Catholic means you follow all of the Church's teaching, not pick and choose which ones you like and dislike.
I can't say your wrong on the topic of a child's upbringing because I have neither researched it nor seen it first hand. I know it does happen but it seems very, very uncommon or at least here in Miami. All I can say is that every since I was young the idea was that being gay was associated as something negative. I know that being gay is in no way a bad thing but with the amount of homophobia around, I can only imagine that having gay parents would only mark a target for harassment and insults because we all know high school isn't a cake walk. High school is downright brutal for some people as it is. Having gay parents seems to me like just another topic for insults.
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:10 am
Eh, I do think a lot of Christians these days probably do pick and choose what to believe and follow in the Bible. I'm not saying all of them are that way or you are one of them D: I just think it probably does happen. You probably wouldn't call them devout Christians either...but they might still think of themselves that way.
And this brings up my own personal belief that while believing in the Christian God is a choice, being gay is not. I don't think it's a choice anymore than I choose to be straight. Otherwise we wouldn't find homosexual behavior in over 1,000 different species in the animal kingdom. I don't think the Bible says anything about animals being capable of sin does it? I mean, I thought it was only humans born with original sin...and I've heard different things from different people, such as that animals are thought to be "soulless" in that they are incapable of sin, judgment, and admission into Heaven. (I don't know if you believe in that or not, like I said it's just what I've heard.) They seem to act on instinct more than "choice."
And if penguins can be homosexual couples and successfully raise a child I'm sure humans are capable of the same thing. This is what I'm talking about if you didn't hear about it.
But I do agree that the child will be stigmatized for it. But hey, black people were stigmatized for exercising their freedoms even after they were free, such as voting (and maybe getting married in churches mostly run by white people, I don't know the history of the post-enslavement discrimination that thoroughly), but by persisting they have become far more accepted now. I know that a black straight couple getting married is not comparable to a gay couple as there is nothing in the Bible condemning it. My point was that they faced similar adversities even after receiving civil liberties. I think the stigma of homosexual parents would begin to diminish over time in a similar way.
I am not saying that the gay rights struggle is as bad here in America as the black rights movement was. As far as I know gay people weren't marginalized into slavery the way black people were in this country. I can't speak for others because I don't really know the history.
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:31 pm
@ April: Oh trust me I know. Thats what's sad in today's world. Many Catholics don't agree that the Church doesn't accept contraception or in vitro pregnancy and they choose to ignore that teaching. They don't realize that doing so is a serious offense. You can't be Christian and use condoms. You can't be Cristian and be pro-choice. It just doesn't work.
Well of course orientation isn't a choice. Thats what sadly many people in society don't understand and why there are so many misconceptions about gays. People don't suddenly say "Hmmm I'm gonna be straight now" and bam its done xd
And no animals don't have a soul and are incapable of making moral or immoral choices (this makes the movie 'All Dogs Go to Heaven' theologically inaccurate but hey, its a movie xD) Nor do they have a conscience and cannot make a wrong decision. With that said, you can't use gay animal as a comparison for raising a child. This is because animals don't live in the social environment fueled by trends, cliques(sp), popularity, discrimination, etc. Basically all the things we have that they don't. But like I said, I don't have much knowledge on the topic so I can't really say much.
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:53 pm
Dr Entropy I'd also like to note that I pity a child in a same sex relationship. Being a Catholic means you follow all of the Church's teaching, not pick and choose which ones you like and dislike. Hence we have laws. I'm not trying to shove my religion down other people's throats. Sorry, that's a major cut- and paste version. But those are the things I am going to argue against, and they're widely spread. 1) A child in a same-sex marriage DOES NOT deserve your pity. They are receiving no less of a childhood than you or me. 2) The Bible addresses plenty more than homosexuality in the 613 commandments. It also condemns people other than homosexuals. Do you work/ use electricity on Friday Nights? Do you ostracize lepers? Do you leave the four corners of your fields for the poor? Do you mix milk and meat with your meals? Do you eat pig products? Do you bring unblemished animals for sacrifice? I'm guessing not. Don't pinpoint homosexuality as a sin, my friend, because by the book you're pulling your half-baked ideas from, you're just as bad. 3) Um, you kind of ARE shoving your religion down our throat. Seriously. People piss me off when they freak about 1/613 of the rules in the bible. People make a bigger deal out of this than murder. rolleyes
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:48 pm
@ Egga:
1) You shouldn't be affected by who I choose to pity and who I don't choose to. I simply feel they are prey to more insults.
2) Woah woah woah! I NEVER SAID HOMOSEXUALITY WAS A SIN. I said Homosexual marriage is a sin. There's a big difference. And I'm pinpointing the topic of homosexuality because thats what this thread is about.
3)If I was shoving my religion down your throat, I'd be ranting about how you should be Catholic and why. I'm simply stating and defending my view on gay marriage because churrlo asked. I'm not freaking out over anything. If this was a topic about murder I'd gladly give my opinion on it.
Egga dear, I don't know why your suddenly so set off by me. Can we have a discussion and not an argument? Thats what everyone else seems to be doing. I don't see any reason to get flustered or upset over the topic.
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:24 pm
Homosexual marriage is a sin if you are catholic??
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:30 pm
angel_half82 Homosexual marriage is a sin if you are catholic?? -Nod- They won't recognize it as a valid marriage.
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 5:56 pm
Dr Entropy @ Ace: Yes my views are traditional but they simply follow the teachings of the Church. The Church hasn't changed their views on marriage even with all the cultural changes therefore keep their standpoint at a traditional one. The Church refers to the man and women's role in the family as the "brain and heart" to signify that they complement each other. They each depend on each other in certain aspects where one spouse contributes in a different way than the other. We all know men and women think differently. That difference is needed to balance out the other's stand point from the perspective of someone of the opposite sex. If you have a same sex marriage you don't exactly have that balance regardless of orientation. Just to clarify this, the organ that I stated in no way represents their role in the house because it is different with each family. <.< I could have just as easily said liver and lungs. I simply used the example my theology book used. I'd also like to note that I pity a child in a same sex relationship. Aside from the extreme confusion and needed explanations, today's world still isn't as accepting as one would think. Idk how it is over there in Virginia but here in Miami there is still an incredible amount of homophobia despite the rather large gay community. Daily in the halls of my school I constantly here "Bro! Your such a f**!" "Dude thats so gay!" I can't stand to imagine the amount of harassment and embarrassment a child of a same sex relationship would have to endure on a daily basis. Thats why I don't support gay marriage on both a legal and religious standpoint. If a gay couple must have a civil union because they want marital rights, please don't bring a child into the equation. That just further complicates things. I would perfer if you didn't use "The Church" for my church does not share the same views as your church. I think you're better off saying, "The Catholic Church" does not recognize homosexual marriage then just "The Church." As for a child of the same sex marriage, the professor at my sister's college has a daughter that is hetrosexual and lives a normal life. Kids are going to understand if you explain to them and as far as it goes with being "harassed", all kids are picked on for different reasons - their gender, their race, their hair, their clothes, and even their fat mother. And eventually all those kids grow up and realize there's no reason to bully people for such stupid reasons. And if those bullies manage to still do it in highschool, they're probably get thier asses kicked for simply being annoying. Okay, you really don't know a thing about Virgina xD Virginia is probably one of the most conservative states (actually, we're a commonwealth) and being apart of the Bible Belt, I doubt gay rights legislation would ever pass here. And look who came out of Virgina, Jerry Falwell, the man who stated that the purple Teletubbie was "role modelling the gay lifestyle is damaging to the moral lives of children." As well as believing "that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America" helped make the September 11th attacks happen. Falwell makes me die a little inside... As for what you hear in your school, I hear it all the time - and they're not picking on the gays or bis or the children of gay parents. "Gay" is often used (at least in my high school) to mean stupid or that sucks. And yeah, I admit, I have said, "Man, That's Gay!" But we're not actually picking on someone or even offending them, 'cause I'm not offending my bisexual self. Most of the time when I say something about like girls, I get an odd look and then people go back to their business. Doesn't bother me. Alas though, if you were raised in a church that does not support gay marriage there's nothing wrong with that and there's nothing wrong with your views.
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 6:16 pm
i hope this dicussion doesnt get too heated. it may have to be locked if we are going to attack the beliefs and opinions of people.
@entropy: dogs dont go to heaven?!? my childhood! those were some good movies.
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 6:21 pm
I don't really think it will. I have no vendeta against Soul because he doesn't support something I do. Besides, I enjoy such topics because you learn interesting facts and opinions.
The second movie pissed me off >.> It said cats go to hell emo
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 6:36 pm
@ Jfm: I don't think it'll get too heated. The majority of the thread has been nothing but calm debate in my opinion. Maby just move it to the ED?
Yes I'm sorry Jfm. Pets don't go to heaven......you do know that when people go to heaven they don't become angels right? xD
@ Ace:I'm sorry. I that is an error on my part. By Church I'm simply referring to teachings coming from the Vatican. I'll just say the Vatican then or Catholic Church. Whichever you feel more comfortable with.
Yes thats very true but for people who don't choose to educate them self on the matter and simply gossip, they tend to be the ones to bully. "See that guy? His dad's gay and married to another guy. What a freak family. I bet he's gay too" Of course in the future they'll realize what they did was wrong but thats not going to stop them at that age with that level of maturity which is really sad.
Never heard of him before but from what you tell me, I don't like him already <_<;; Thats just taking it to the extreme.
And thank you for respecting my views as I do yours 3nodding I wish for nothing but wedding bells in your future.
Edit: Provided they don't have a crucifix engraved in them <<;;
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 7:15 pm
@Soul:
Bullies always seem to be a problem of society, I wish it was there parents that would educate them so they would learn to be more tolerant and open-minded.
I think Pat Roberson also lives here, we got a lot of those over the top religious people. Flordia got any people like that?
Ah, way to soon to really even think about a wedding xD I got to get to college first and see if I still have a thing for girls or was it just my one love. Either way, Ace is wearing a wedding dress, they're pretty x3
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 7:20 pm
Goddess Ace I don't really think it will. I have no vendeta against Soul because he doesn't support something I do. Besides, I enjoy such topics because you learn interesting facts and opinions. The second movie pissed me off >.> It said cats go to hell emo those movies werent biased against cats at alllllll. xD @entropy: who ever thought that? although it has been portrayed like that in just about any "heaven" in movies.
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