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 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:33 am
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Someoneiknow PawzPrint Jury duty is over (yay!) but I am exhausted on this topic..... This is why I believe mormonism is a cult. http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/cult.shtmlI thought for awhile how I was going to form my claim that mormonism is a cult. Then I thought that it might be better to just post the url. It isn't that long to read. I read it in two chunks and got through it okay. I don't think that I'll be replying here for a bit - nothing against you or shadows. I just need a step back for a bit. I would encourage you to actually read the site, even if you have to do it in more than one day. Where were the actual scriptural verses to back up most of what that website said? It sounds like somebody just distorting what they believe into what "should" be law, which is not right. The Bible is by the means that we identify, but we do not use it to identify who is "the wolf", we only use scripture in context to identify who the followers of Christ are. So your individual that you quoted from is taking some verses out of context. He states something along the lines of "a cult is someone who wears special clothes, eats special things, etc." But then by that definition, you have to assume that many priests are cultist activists, and even Christ's chosen, the Jews, are all practicing in a cult. What kind of logic is that? All I read out of that website was this "If you don't do what my church does, you're a cult." It appears that even the author didn't look up the definition of "cult". Oh, and the word "cult" or even "occult" doesn't appear is scripture, thus enhancing the fact that you do not find out who the "wolf" is from scripture, you only identify the righteous and discern truth.
I'm not expecting a member of a cult to admit that they are part of a cult.
And from your post, it seems like you didn't grasp what he was saying. Pray about it. Try reading it again. Look at the bullet point of 'Sacred Writings'. |
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:56 pm
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I am going to acknowledge a couple points from your link...Though it was full of things that were in short a bunch of crap! I got the same thing out of it that my husband did. The writer basically stated "If you're not a protestant or a member or my church, you're a cult." How obsurd! I also want to say before I break down certain points, that I have posted several links in this thread that prove the LDS Church to be a true church and that the Book of Mormon is a true, inspired work. Has any one bothered to look at those links? Has any one bothered to look at the other side of the spectrum, rather than just one side? Why should we, who are arguing for the LDS Church be expected to look at the links that you provide, but you won't even take the time to look at the links that I provide?
Any ways...
Cults follow false “sacred writings”
Quote: The Book of Mormon, first published in 1830, is an example of a “sacred writing” separate from the Bible. The people who support this book claim that it is the “words sealed in a scroll” mentioned in Isaiah 29:11,12. However, reading the rest of Isaiah chapter 29 shows us that the “words sealed in a scroll” is a metaphor—a figure of speech explaining how people can ignore a message given to them. (For example, how many people will read this paragraph and still think the Book of Mormon is OK? To them, this paragraph is “words sealed in a scroll.”) However, unlike the Bible, the Book of Mormon had (and still has) numerous mistakes and had to be revised several times. Here is an example of a mistake that still exists in Ether 15:29-31. 29 Wherefore, he did pursue them, and on the morrow he did overtake them; and they fought again with the sword. And it came to pass that when they had all fallen by the sword, save it were Coriantumr and Shiz, behold Shiz had fainted with the loss of blood. 30 And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz. 31 And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died. Here we have a person, Shiz, who fainted from loss of blood and had his head cut off. Then Shiz “raised up on his hands” and “struggled for breath.” You do not have to be a doctor, scientist, or religious expert to realize that this story is fantasy.
The Bible is also considered a "sacred writing". Why is it wrong for the Book of Mormon to be considered as such?
And for the verse that was cited in the section, did it ever occur to any one that when the body dies, limbs are removed, a head is decapitated, etc. That nerves still twitch, they still move because it's takes longer for nerves to die. So the wording of this verse may seem totally false, but you know if Shiz was beheaded, his facial muscles still can move, and the arms can still twitch. It doesn't take a medical expert or religious expert to realize that. And so maybe the recorder of the event describe what I just said, but in different terms.
Quote: In addition to common errors, there are verses in the Book of Mormon that directly contradict the Bible. For example, look at following two verses that appear in 2 Nephi, chapter 25. 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled. Here, we have two conflicts with the Bible. First, the phrase “after all we can do” in verse 23 is in direct conflict with Ephesians 2:8,9 in the Bible, which states that the things we do (good deeds or “works”) have nothing to do with being saved. Footnotes in the Book of Mormon for 2 Nephi 25:23 imply that this phrase is in agreement with James 2:24 in the Bible. However, reading James chapter 2 reveals that the meaning used in 2 Nephi is the not the intended meaning. The Bible does not tell us to do “works” to help ourselves get saved. It tells us to do them because we are saved. Second, the very next sentence (verse 24) echoes the beliefs of the first cult (discussed earlier on this page). We can not believe that a book that contradicts the Bible and is filled with errors could be inspired by God. Hopefully, you will not either.
The verse in 2 Nephi is the most misunderstood verse in the Book of Mormon in my opinion. Let me ask, does it take a work of faith to accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour? Yes. Does it take a work of faith to follow Christ with all you have? Yes. Does it take a work of faith to believe the bible is the word of God? Yes. And so on so forth.. So the verse acknowledges that Christ, God's grace, saves us, but it is up to us to accept Him!
And the Bible contradicts itself, so that arguement about the Book of Mormon contradicting it holds no ground.
Quote: Is Everyone In a Cult Going to Hell? Any person who willingly follows a cult (whether they know it is a cult or not) is on a path that ends up in hell. However, there is a way to escape. They must leave the cult as soon as they learn that they are involved in one. Then they must get right with God. This second step is as important as leaving the cult, since just leaving a cult will not get someone into heaven. (There are a lot of people who have never been involved with a cult and will still not go to heaven. If you do not understand this, see our “Who Gets To Go To Heaven?” page.)
It is NOT up to any human being to condemn any one, no matter what religion they follow, to hell. That is left up to God. It is also NOT up to any human being to say that just because a belief system is different than some one else's that they are on the path to hell. We as Christians, and yes I say we, because I am a Christian, can judge, but not condemn! And NO human can say who is going to heaven either!
Quote: The founders of many cults said they had special gifts. Others said that they received communications from God through visions, dreams, or angelic visitors
I guess that makes Paul a false leader. He claimed to have seen Christ and was visited by an angel. Same with Abraham and Lot. They saw angels. What about Moses? He supposedly talked with God face to face. Enoch? He walked and talked with God. What about the Angel that visited Joshua? Isaiah had visions, so did Daniel...Are they false leaders too?
Quote: Cults give the same authority to another writing as they give to the Bible
Protestantism is just as guilty of this as any one else. I have seen many many protestants in the time that I was a protestant that gave just as much authority to CS Lewis' writings as they do the bible. And let me say, that the bible is not the "Be all end all authority" nor does it contain all the words of God! It even says that in the Bible (John 21:25). I believe and know that the Book of Mormon contains some of His words.
There was also a section in that link that talked about clothing...ceromonial clothing and what not...What about the Jews? God's chosen people! They wear special clothing! Are they cultists too? Oh and let's not forget Aaron, Moses' brother, he wore special clothing to enter the temple of the Lord. Does that make him part of a cult?
And tell me how, one can distort the Bible? It is so broad and so vague and can be interpreted in many many different ways!
EDIT: And I am not going to pray about the things that that article has stated...I have seen all the anti-LDS crap and it all says the same thing. It's crap! It's not contructive criticism either! I have prayed about the LDS Church and have received confirmation from Heavenly Father that the Church is true, so I am not going to pray and ask Him to contradict Himself. That'd be absolutely nonsensical.
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:33 pm
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I want to acknowledge a specific point about the Book of Mormon, as mentioned in that link...
Quote: The people who support this book claim that it is the “words sealed in a scroll” mentioned in Isaiah 29:11,12.
Isaiah is a hard prophet to understand, but he is one of my favourites, so I have put a lot of time and effort into trying to understand his prophesies. He was known for making dual prophecies. All his prophesies that he made, had more than one events attatched to them. He didn't prophesy using metaphores as the link said. That was not Isaiah's style, so the verse in question in chapter 29 of Isaiah, is not a metaphorical "sealed book".
The verses that are used to point to the Book of Mormon from the Bible, most frequently do support it, mainly Isaiah 29:11 and Ezekiel 37...can't remember the verse off the top my head.
The author from this book quotes and sums up my point quite nicely, so I will quote him.
Quote: Anti-Mormon critics seek in vain a way to explain the prophecy found in Isaiah chapter 29. The explanation that Isaiah chapters 28-31 describe the "woes of Ephraim and Jerusalem for trusting in foreign alliances against God's will" ignores several facts. It ignores, first of all, that Isaiah often interjected prophetic events into his commentary about his day. Chapters 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 14, 24, 26, 40, 43, 45, 53, 63, and 65 provide many examples of prophetic visions of the past and future events interwoven with the prophet's preaching to his own generation. Critics also ignore the fact that the decendants of Joseph (through Ephraim and Manessah) would be spread like a "fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall...unto the utmost bound of everlasting hills" (Genesis 49:22, 26). The Western Hemisphere has the longest mountain range in the world. The Rocky Mountains extend from the northern tip of North America to the Southern tip of South America. It is significant to the people who wrote the Book of Mormon left Jerusalem shortly after Isaiah's day (600BC) and were themselves descendants of Joseph. Thus, it appears that when Isaiah spoke of Ephraim, he naturally connected the fate of all of Joseph's posterity in all parts of the earth (Isaiah 28:22). Isaiah 29:1 speaks of "Ariel, the city where David dwelt," (i.e. Jerusalem) and then changes the subject, focusing on another place, saying "it shall be unto me as Ariel" (verse 2). He then speaks of the "heaviness and sorrow" of the descendants of Joseph and goes on to describe the fate of a people who would suffer the wrath of the Lord and would "speak out the ground...as one that hath a familiar spirit" (Isaiah 29:4). The Book of Mormon was written in a style which is similar to Isaiah's own writing and was translated from records buried in the ground. The book is an account of the decendants of Joseph who passed away "at an instant suddenly" (Isaiah 29:5; see also Mormon 6). The Book of Mormon is the only "book" which has fulfilled the prophecies found in Isaiah 29 verses 11 through 14. The book of Revelation does not. The Dead Sea Scrolls do not. Other books discovered in the 20th century do not. Only the Book of Mormon fulfills these prophecies in every point (see JS-H 1:51-52, 63-65; 2 Nephi 26:14-19; 27:1-26). This book alone has caused "the wisdom of...wise men" to "perish" and "the eyes of the blind" to "see out of obscurity, and out of darkness" (Isaiah 29:14, 18 ). The coming forth of the Book of Mormon was in a day when the eyes of prophets, rulers, and seers were "covered" (Isaiah 29:10; 30:10) and just prior ot the time when the Jews began to turn back from their error and "come to understanding" (Isaiah 29:23-24). The day when "Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven" (Psalm 85:11) has come. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon was also predicted by Ezekiel in the day when Israel would be restored as a nation (Ezekiel 36:24-37:14). In that day, the record of Joseph the branch of Ephraim was to be joined to the record of Judah and the children of Israel were to be gathered "from among the heathen" and brought "into their own land" (Ezekiel 37:15-21). This gathering was not the temporary gathering after their exile in Assyria but was the permanent gathering when they would dwell in the land of Jacob "forever" (Ezekiel 37:25-26) and the Lord would sanctify His people Israel (Ezekiel 37:27-28 ). If Isaiah 29 is not a prophecy of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, then our critics have utterly failed in their attempt to produce a satisfactory answer as to what it does describe. They have failed to identify the sealed book described in verse 11 or the "marvelous work and a wonder" which will confound the wise and prudent (verse 14). Truly the fulfillment of this prophecy correlates in too many details with coming forth of the Book of Mormon to ascribe it to coincidence. The Book of Mormon is causing the wisdom of the wise and prudent to perish. Those who choose to ignore it will remain in obscurity and darkeness, blind to the truth (Isaiah 29:18, 24).
Taken from the book "Answering Challenging Mormon Questions"
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:14 pm
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:50 pm
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:52 pm
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:56 pm
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PawzPrint Shadows-shine And the Bible contradicts itself, so that arguement about the Book of Mormon contradicting it holds no ground. Just by you saying this leads me to think that you are not a Christian. The Bible is God's Word. It does not contradict itself. If it did, then God would not be consistent. Then what would be the point in following such a God? And I have said all I have wanted to say and nothing I say further will be of any good. I have told you the truth and it is up to you to decide what you want to do with it.
I don't have to believe the Bible is inerrant to be a Christian. That is not what being a Christian is. I never said God was inconsistant either, but man is. And who wrote the Bible? Man did. So, by man being imperfect they have introduced errors either by acident or intentionally into the Bible.
You didn't tell me any truth, just some one's opinion. I have the truth and it was given to me directly from Heavenly Father, not from stupid internet article. And I am sorry, but I see a double standard here, which you didn't acknowledge. Why should I be expected to look at and pray about the link you provided, when you won't do the same for the links that I provided? |
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:05 pm
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:47 pm
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Green_Fuu Shadows-shine I don't have to believe the Bible is inerrant to be a Christian. That is not what being a Christian is. I never said God was inconsistant either, but man is. And who wrote the Bible? Man did. So, by man being imperfect they have introduced errors either by acident or intentionally into the Bible.
Not when your neck is on the line.
If correct spelling, flawless execution of what God has told you to do was what was keeping you from damnation, trust me you are going become perfect because you are, even if it costs you your life.
When God uses someone to do his will there is no such things as errors.
Do you think God would have let anyone write something he did not want in there?
All scripture is inspired by God.
Yes, there are such things as errors in the Bible. It may be inspired by God, but it is not an errant book. Being inspired =/= being perfect. I am inspired by God on numerous occasions, but I am no where near perfect. And God uses people to do His work all the time and those people err quite often in the task. Paul reprimanded himself several times for slipping up and he was once a mouth piece for the Lord. Joseph Smith was another man God used to bring forth His plans, and yet Joseph Smith was not perfect. God is more understanding than that. He won't strike you dead if you screw up a long the way in your calling. My life's calling is to be a wife and a mother, and I am far from perfect. More often than not I have erred in many ways, but there is forgiveness. The people who recorded the things written in the Bible are no different. They erred in many different things and very well could have introduced errors into the bible, intentionally or accidently. So, like I said before, being inspired =/= being perfect. I will add that the only perfect person was Jesus Christ. So no man that wrote the Bible was perfect. Jesus didn't record a thing in the books that we call the Bible.
The Bible has been changed, things have been removed, added, corrected, mistranslated, there are scribal errors, punctuation errors, etc. I can list a whole bunch of contradictions that are in the Bible, believe me there are a whole bunch of them! |
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:07 pm
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Shadows-shine Green_Fuu Shadows-shine I don't have to believe the Bible is inerrant to be a Christian. That is not what being a Christian is. I never said God was inconsistant either, but man is. And who wrote the Bible? Man did. So, by man being imperfect they have introduced errors either by acident or intentionally into the Bible.
Not when your neck is on the line.
If correct spelling, flawless execution of what God has told you to do was what was keeping you from damnation, trust me you are going become perfect because you are, even if it costs you your life.
When God uses someone to do his will there is no such things as errors.
Do you think God would have let anyone write something he did not want in there?
All scripture is inspired by God.
Yes, there are such things as errors in the Bible. It may be inspired by God, but it is not an errant book. Being inspired =/= being perfect. I am inspired by God on numerous occasions, but I am no where near perfect. And God uses people to do His work all the time and those people err quite often in the task. Paul reprimanded himself several times for slipping up and he was once a mouth piece for the Lord. Joseph Smith was another man God used to bring forth His plans, and yet Joseph Smith was not perfect. God is more understanding than that. He won't strike you dead if you screw up a long the way in your calling. My life's calling is to be a wife and a mother, and I am far from perfect. More often than not I have erred in many ways, but there is forgiveness. The people who recorded the things written in the Bible are no different. They erred in many different things and very well could have introduced errors into the bible, intentionally or accidently. So, like I said before, being inspired =/= being perfect. I will add that the only perfect person was Jesus Christ. So no man that wrote the Bible was perfect. Jesus didn't record a thing in the books that we call the Bible. The Bible has been changed, things have been removed, added, corrected, mistranslated, there are scribal errors, punctuation errors, etc. I can list a whole bunch of contradictions that are in the Bible, believe me there are a whole bunch of them!
In every single example that you gave, you are looking at the small picture.
EVERY human errs, Salomon did, David did, but that didn't stop God from going on with his plan perfectly executed.
If God says blue you better believe it's gonna be blue, if God say write this, it is going to be written.
Look at the big picture.
We as human may err but God NEVER errs
once again, I ask you this question
Do you think God would have let anyone write something he did not want in there?
If you believe that the Bible is God's word and inspired by God but yet still insist that it is inconsistent, wrong, and full of errors, then I think you and me are talking about a different God
Because the God I believe in would never mislead, confuse, nor deceive people.
If Jesus didn't think the scriptures were Gods words he wouldn't have even bothered to fulfill prophecy and refer to it as many times he did. |
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:11 am
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Green_Fuu Shadows-shine Green_Fuu Shadows-shine I don't have to believe the Bible is inerrant to be a Christian. That is not what being a Christian is. I never said God was inconsistant either, but man is. And who wrote the Bible? Man did. So, by man being imperfect they have introduced errors either by acident or intentionally into the Bible.
Not when your neck is on the line.
If correct spelling, flawless execution of what God has told you to do was what was keeping you from damnation, trust me you are going become perfect because you are, even if it costs you your life.
When God uses someone to do his will there is no such things as errors.
Do you think God would have let anyone write something he did not want in there?
All scripture is inspired by God.
Yes, there are such things as errors in the Bible. It may be inspired by God, but it is not an errant book. Being inspired =/= being perfect. I am inspired by God on numerous occasions, but I am no where near perfect. And God uses people to do His work all the time and those people err quite often in the task. Paul reprimanded himself several times for slipping up and he was once a mouth piece for the Lord. Joseph Smith was another man God used to bring forth His plans, and yet Joseph Smith was not perfect. God is more understanding than that. He won't strike you dead if you screw up a long the way in your calling. My life's calling is to be a wife and a mother, and I am far from perfect. More often than not I have erred in many ways, but there is forgiveness. The people who recorded the things written in the Bible are no different. They erred in many different things and very well could have introduced errors into the bible, intentionally or accidently. So, like I said before, being inspired =/= being perfect. I will add that the only perfect person was Jesus Christ. So no man that wrote the Bible was perfect. Jesus didn't record a thing in the books that we call the Bible. The Bible has been changed, things have been removed, added, corrected, mistranslated, there are scribal errors, punctuation errors, etc. I can list a whole bunch of contradictions that are in the Bible, believe me there are a whole bunch of them! In every single example that you gave, you are looking at the small picture.
EVERY human errs, Salomon did, David did, but that didn't stop God from going on with his plan perfectly executed.
If God says blue you better believe it's gonna be blue, if God say write this, it is going to be written.
Look at the big picture.
We as human may err but God NEVER errs
once again, I ask you this question
Do you think God would have let anyone write something he did not want in there?
If you believe that the Bible is God's word and inspired by God but yet still insist that it is inconsistent, wrong, and full of errors, then I think you and me are talking about a different God
Because the God I believe in would never mislead, confuse, nor deceive people.
If Jesus didn't think the scriptures were Gods words he wouldn't have even bothered to fulfill prophecy and refer to it as many times he did.
I understood every thing perfectly. I don't doubt that God told every thing and spoke every word perfectly, but does that mean that man understood it perfectly when he recorded it in the Bible? Nope. And the Bible translation is not perfect. There is no such thing as a perfect translation, it simply does not happen. Ever hear of the phrase lost in translation? And in the Hebrew language there is no punctuation, so therefore, the people who have translated the Bible into other languages have added punctuation that may or may not have belonged there.
And like I said, God is not going to strike some one dead for copying a text down wrong over and over again for the Bible. The Bible came from several separate documents that were not complete, either because pieces were missing, faded, they were so old one could not get an accurate translation from them so they were tossed out, etc. Biblical inerrancy has been debated amongst Christian scholars for centuries.
And also, God has given people agency, so those who have recorded things wrongly or incorrectly into the Bible, regardless of what God wanted, chose to do that out of their own free will. God will judge them accordingly. And people do things every day that aren't necessarily what God wants, why should recording some thing in the Bible be any different?
Like I said being inspired =/= being perfect. That is looking at the big picture. Those examples that I provided were looking at the big picture. |
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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:22 pm
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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:57 pm
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Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:36 pm
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Shadows-shine Testicular Diabetes I have a Mormon friend, shes pretty cool. I was always told that they wrote their own Bible or something like that. I don't know how true that is, I have nothing against them.
I'm not fond of the whole Polygamy thing but not all Mormons partake in that either.
I believe in coexisting with others instead of prosecuting them. No, the LDS did not write their own bible. Polygamy is no longer practiced.
I guess the group in Texas didn't get the memo that polygamy isn't practiced. |
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Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:49 pm
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gothic_black_rose Shadows-shine Testicular Diabetes I have a Mormon friend, shes pretty cool. I was always told that they wrote their own Bible or something like that. I don't know how true that is, I have nothing against them.
I'm not fond of the whole Polygamy thing but not all Mormons partake in that either.
I believe in coexisting with others instead of prosecuting them. No, the LDS did not write their own bible. Polygamy is no longer practiced. I guess the group in Texas didn't get the memo that polygamy isn't practiced.
Or Utah. |
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