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A Clockwork Mind

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 2:40 pm


Ultra Sarah
Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart
Ultra Sarah
Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart
Ultra Sarah


So the all knowing God made mistakes? This doesn't add up ...

Like I think I've said before ... is a mother allowed to kill her own children?


Uh...when did I say He made a mistake? Just because His creation rebelled doesn't mean He made a mistake. He gave us choice, free will if you'd like, and it's our mistake.

And to answer your question... I say no, because G-d is ultimately the Creator and only He decides when people die, and that's why murder is a sin. But other Christians say it a free choice that G-d gives us. I don't believe that's correct, or at the very least we can make that choice, but we have to face the consequences just as others who kill people do.


He made the mistake of making people who would "rebel".

He seems pretty terrible. "I say you die, you die and you die. Now. And you will die in a terrible flood, drowning to death."


Doesn't seem like His mistake. Seems like ours.

Obviously, He didn't just kill them without reason. He sent the flood because everyone was disgusting, rebellious, murdering, sinful, and cursing His name beyond which had ever been seen. These were inherently evil people who had no right to live after rejecting and cursing the Almighty G-d of everything. He sent them Noah, who did tell them about it. They obviously had an opportunity to repent, considering it took Noah an insanely long amount of time to build the ark.

It's not like He sent one every again. It's obviously a very extreme case, that's only going to outdone at the end times when He just gets fed up with people who don't listen to what He's plainly put out there for thousands and thousands of years.

(You know, instead of blaming G-d for death, you really should be blaming Satan. Maybe Satan hasn't outright killed that many people, he's killed everyone who's ever died. He's the reason there is death. Without him, God would never have had to kill anyone)


Death is okay. Murder is unacceptable.

If he was all-knowing, he would know that they would rebel, and that the people wouldn't stop sinning before Noah could finish the ark.


Right. G-d never murders out of cold blood. You can always find a reason

What's your point? At least He gives a choice. He doesn't automatically send them to Hell without a way out. He knows their choice, He doesn't make it for them. It's still their fault.
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:46 pm


Okay. Okay.

Now prove that every single one of those people and animals that died in the flood deserved it.

Ultra Sarah


A Clockwork Mind

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:21 pm


Ultra Sarah
Okay. Okay.

Now prove that every single one of those people and animals that died in the flood deserved it.

Sinners. We all deserve the same thing. G-d just chooses to contain His fury until the end times because of His promise to Noah not to do such a thing again. He only saved Noah because he walked in righteousness and honestly tried to follow G-d, and by extension saved his family.
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:54 pm


The animals? At least the animals. Seriously.

Ultra Sarah


A Clockwork Mind

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:16 pm


Ultra Sarah
The animals? At least the animals. Seriously.

Read the Bible. Even the animals started bothering Him. They were affected by the Fall same as man. They murdered and did things just as bothersome.

Obviously, it doesn't matter quite as much, since animals aren't ressurected like humans, but He was still compassionate enough to save two of each.
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:46 pm


Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart
Knowing things are going to happen and controlling them are two seperate things. I can know my little sister is going to take my hair brush, but that doesn't mean I make her. She has the choice whether or not to, but she still does it.

And punishing someone after you've given them free will isn't contradictory either. He doesn't allow for the opposite choice without consequences, but He still lets us make it because otherwise it's not fair and we're just mindless drones who don't love Him because of real love.
The other choice has consequences He warns us about over and over again, He constantly tells us about it, warns us, He does everything He can to make sure we don't choose that path, short of making the decision for us. So you really can't blame Him when He's told you over and over and over again and you just choose not to listen.
If your parents tell you that you can't go to a party with alcohol, or you'll never get to see this person who invited you again, and let you make the decision, you've been warned and should know better.


Except that in this case, he DID cause it to happen, because he's all powerful and created the universe, remember? He's not one or the other, he's both omniscient AND omnipotent, all-knowing and all-powerful. By creating the universe the way he did, he already set in motion the way things are going to turn out until the end of time.

Basically, if you're such a powerful being to create the entire UNIVERSE, nothing is going to be out of your control. This isn't a case of knowing your sister is going to take your brush, it's arranging the circumstances for your sister to get up, want your brush, guide her towards the brush, fix her psychology so that she's not inhibited to take the brush, and then have her take the brush. We're talking about two vastly different scales here.

The point is that if you believe in such a powerful deity, you can't believe in free will, it doesn't exist. He's arranged for everything, and it all falls under his big master plan. From the fall of Satan, Adam, Jesus, and Man, it was all meant for it to happen. Therefore, it becomes ludicrous that he would punish you for something he both a) not just knew, but PLANNED on happening and b) caused to happen, however indirectly (although truth be told, he would have to have a direct cause in just about everything anyway). In anyway you look at it, free will doesn't make sense.

Of couse he doesn't want mindless drones worshipping him. We can tell because we're not mindless drones, and some people don't worship him. What we can tell he does want is what we have, because for a being that powerful, what we see has to be what he wants, otherwise it wouldn't be here. The closest analogy I can think of is like writing a story. For the finished product, the only things that are there are there because YOU WANTED THEM THERE. Nothing is there that you did write down, that you didn't want to be there. Since we're assuming that he's the author of the entire cosmos, anything that's here (physically, temporaly, and otherwise) must be here because he wants it here.

Cornelius loh Quatious


Ultra Sarah

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 12:01 pm


Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart
Ultra Sarah
The animals? At least the animals. Seriously.

Read the Bible. Even the animals started bothering Him. They were affected by the Fall same as man. They murdered and did things just as bothersome.

Obviously, it doesn't matter quite as much, since animals aren't ressurected like humans, but He was still compassionate enough to save two of each.


Compassionate? It sounds like he murdered all of the animals friends ... then forced them into a crowded boat.
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 2:08 pm


Ultra Sarah
Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart
Ultra Sarah
The animals? At least the animals. Seriously.

Read the Bible. Even the animals started bothering Him. They were affected by the Fall same as man. They murdered and did things just as bothersome.

Obviously, it doesn't matter quite as much, since animals aren't ressurected like humans, but He was still compassionate enough to save two of each.


Compassionate? It sounds like he murdered all of the animals friends ... then forced them into a crowded boat.

It's not murder. G-d has every right to kill something rebelling against His laws and wishes. He's the Creator. He could have, and should have killed everything and started over from there, but He chose not to.
Crowded? Hardly. The ark was huge. Calculations from the Bible put it larger than a football field and several stories tall. I recall reading a science book that said exactly how much space there was, and it placed more than enough room in there for the animals and the food required to sustain them.

A Clockwork Mind


Cornelius loh Quatious

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 9:03 pm


Let's hang on just a second. Scientifically, the ark, the flood, and the whole story didn't actually happen, so all that stuff is pretty irrelevant. The real question is, just how much right do you have to control or kill that which you've created?

If I were to develop a totally viable Intelligent Being (let's say for this argument a computer program with a self-aware and conscious mind), do I have the right to end its life? In another example, if I build from scratch test-tube babies or clones, do I have the right to do what I wish with them?
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 8:19 am


dboyzero
Let's hang on just a second. Scientifically, the ark, the flood, and the whole story didn't actually happen, so all that stuff is pretty irrelevant. The real question is, just how much right do you have to control or kill that which you've created?

If I were to develop a totally viable Intelligent Being (let's say for this argument a computer program with a self-aware and conscious mind), do I have the right to end its life? In another example, if I build from scratch test-tube babies or clones, do I have the right to do what I wish with them?


That's a hard one.

I think that untill they reach the point where they think and feel ... it's okay.

Ultra Sarah


A Clockwork Mind

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:02 pm


dboyzero
Let's hang on just a second. Scientifically, the ark, the flood, and the whole story didn't actually happen, so all that stuff is pretty irrelevant. The real question is, just how much right do you have to control or kill that which you've created?

If I were to develop a totally viable Intelligent Being (let's say for this argument a computer program with a self-aware and conscious mind), do I have the right to end its life? In another example, if I build from scratch test-tube babies or clones, do I have the right to do what I wish with them?

Scientifically, you have no proof that they didn't. But anyways....


But you have to be careful with your scenario there. G-d's scenario is a little different. G-d is the Supreme Creator who created something that owes everything ever to Him, and they rebelled against His perfect laws and perfect being, and His perfection cannot tolerate imperfection (sin) and therefore kills them for rebelling against Him and His laws, after they reject His plan to save them from death.

It's much like the death penalty countries imploy against severe infractions.
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 6:48 pm


Scientifically, we have no proof that they happened, and we've got plenty of proof that it didn't happen. But, to stay on topic, we can discuss this in the "Why do you believe what you believe thread."

I don't see how the scenario is any different. We can only assume that the deity is perfect, much like we can only assume that our parents have our best intentions in mind. Most of the time they do, but go about things in the wrong way, and some of the times they don't, and we have bad things happen. "Perfect" is a subjective term, so there's not really a viable way to say what is or isn't. That said, we still have to consider the thoughts and feelings of those who have been created.

Example: There's tons of people in the world who need organ transplants, limb replacements, blood transfusions, etc. Let's say we've got a completely safe and cost-effective way to create people from scratch so that way we can harvest what we need from them, then recycle what's leftover for further use. A little on the macabre side, but millions of lives are being saved and we don't have to kill or harvest anything from anyone else. It's all for the greater good in most opinions. But do we still have that right? What about the rights of those that we create? Do they even HAVE rights, being created from scratch for the sole purpose of yielding said organs?

Now let's say that a group of them escapes or rebels, and reject us as their creators. They are going directly against the "perfect" plan we had orginally envisioned for them, do we have the right to kill or punish them? Further, do we set them all free, let them have their free will, and kill any of them that don't want to follow our plan? In this way we get only the ones that want to serve us, and any of the others (going against what we had planned for them) get the axe. I suppose it'd be much easier if we didn't tell them that their ultimate fate would be to get chopped up and used for organ harvest, and we'll just tell them that they're going to some paradise, some exotic Island, if you will (sound familiar? I have yet to see it, but I heard it wasn't that great). Would any of that make it more justified?

Cornelius loh Quatious


Ultra Sarah

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 5:57 am


I think it would be wrong if they were actually living their everyday lives, as opposed to being in a coma or something all their lives.

And then if they did live their lives I would give them whatever they wanted ... to a degree. We can't have the donor's be unhealthy.

I think they do have rights, even being made for the sole purpse of yielding organs. As long as their living and thinking ... it wouldn't be right to kill them. But then, as a not vegetarian, it's almost hippcritical.

If there are any that are smart enough to discover the plan, I'd just let them go and get a new clone for whoever's it was.


The Island was enjoyable for me ... but that doesn't mean it was good.
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 6:03 am


dboyzero
Scientifically, we have no proof that they happened, and we've got plenty of proof that it didn't happen. But, to stay on topic, we can discuss this in the "Why do you believe what you believe thread."

I don't see how the scenario is any different. We can only assume that the deity is perfect, much like we can only assume that our parents have our best intentions in mind. Most of the time they do, but go about things in the wrong way, and some of the times they don't, and we have bad things happen. "Perfect" is a subjective term, so there's not really a viable way to say what is or isn't. That said, we still have to consider the thoughts and feelings of those who have been created.

Example: There's tons of people in the world who need organ transplants, limb replacements, blood transfusions, etc. Let's say we've got a completely safe and cost-effective way to create people from scratch so that way we can harvest what we need from them, then recycle what's leftover for further use. A little on the macabre side, but millions of lives are being saved and we don't have to kill or harvest anything from anyone else. It's all for the greater good in most opinions. But do we still have that right? What about the rights of those that we create? Do they even HAVE rights, being created from scratch for the sole purpose of yielding said organs?

Now let's say that a group of them escapes or rebels, and reject us as their creators. They are going directly against the "perfect" plan we had orginally envisioned for them, do we have the right to kill or punish them? Further, do we set them all free, let them have their free will, and kill any of them that don't want to follow our plan? In this way we get only the ones that want to serve us, and any of the others (going against what we had planned for them) get the axe. I suppose it'd be much easier if we didn't tell them that their ultimate fate would be to get chopped up and used for organ harvest, and we'll just tell them that they're going to some paradise, some exotic Island, if you will (sound familiar? I have yet to see it, but I heard it wasn't that great). Would any of that make it more justified?


If we're assuming there's still God ruling the universe while you're doing this, I would say no, it's wrong.

If we're assuming there's not God, then I don't know...I can see the example, but it doesn't exactly apply to God's scenario. I might say yes. I'll have to think about it.

((Um...what Island?))

A Clockwork Mind


Ultra Sarah

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 11:07 am


Faey_of_the_Silver_Heart
dboyzero
Scientifically, we have no proof that they happened, and we've got plenty of proof that it didn't happen. But, to stay on topic, we can discuss this in the "Why do you believe what you believe thread."

I don't see how the scenario is any different. We can only assume that the deity is perfect, much like we can only assume that our parents have our best intentions in mind. Most of the time they do, but go about things in the wrong way, and some of the times they don't, and we have bad things happen. "Perfect" is a subjective term, so there's not really a viable way to say what is or isn't. That said, we still have to consider the thoughts and feelings of those who have been created.

Example: There's tons of people in the world who need organ transplants, limb replacements, blood transfusions, etc. Let's say we've got a completely safe and cost-effective way to create people from scratch so that way we can harvest what we need from them, then recycle what's leftover for further use. A little on the macabre side, but millions of lives are being saved and we don't have to kill or harvest anything from anyone else. It's all for the greater good in most opinions. But do we still have that right? What about the rights of those that we create? Do they even HAVE rights, being created from scratch for the sole purpose of yielding said organs?

Now let's say that a group of them escapes or rebels, and reject us as their creators. They are going directly against the "perfect" plan we had orginally envisioned for them, do we have the right to kill or punish them? Further, do we set them all free, let them have their free will, and kill any of them that don't want to follow our plan? In this way we get only the ones that want to serve us, and any of the others (going against what we had planned for them) get the axe. I suppose it'd be much easier if we didn't tell them that their ultimate fate would be to get chopped up and used for organ harvest, and we'll just tell them that they're going to some paradise, some exotic Island, if you will (sound familiar? I have yet to see it, but I heard it wasn't that great). Would any of that make it more justified?


If we're assuming there's still God ruling the universe while you're doing this, I would say no, it's wrong.

If we're assuming there's not God, then I don't know...I can see the example, but it doesn't exactly apply to God's scenario. I might say yes. I'll have to think about it.

((Um...what Island?))


The Island is a movie.
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