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 Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:23 pm
Deppfan Teague Kain1334 Deppfan Teague Kain1334 As bonhomie wrote 'All men possess Poetic Genius (the ability to create/imagine)'. I agree, but they cannot create or imagine something they have not seen or experienced before. All that we write about is a compilation of our experiences and what we know. We use it as a way to express what we know. If you do not agree then give me an example. But what I am trying to say with this is simple, how did we create something of such a magnitude? How did we imagine that the Creator that brought everything into existence, decided to bleed and die for the exact people who turned their backs on Him and spat at him? Or, that He decided to take upon Him the one thing He hated most, so that those who hated them could come back to Him. Yes we are quite creative, but we cannot create or imagine something we have not experienced. This I believe is a logical response. Actually, if you look at most of the stories in the bible, they have been taken, at least in part, and then modified, from other cultures and other religions. For resurrection, there's Osiris from the Egyptians, Kali from India, Dionysus of Greek myth (check this link), etc, etc, etc. And that's just the resurrection story. So, your argument about us only being able to re-tell past experiences comes back on your own argument for Christianity. I still stand strong with my said argument, for the reason, you completely missed the point. I didn't just say that Christ died and came back, I knew all about Osiris, and Dionysus(thought Kali I must admit is new). No the central point is the reason He died. And for who He died for. You only attacked that He had died and rose, not why or for who. Because that had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. And that was not an attack. It was a calm, civilized remark. I believe Truith responded quite correctly, not only that but I should also mention the dead sea scrolls which showed that many of the books in the old testament to be written before the New, many of which predict with amazing accuracy the coming of Jesus. "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed"-Isaiah 53:5 "And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth."-Isaiah 53:9. And there are also verses talking about gambling for his clothes and so on and so fourth. So no not all predictions are vague many of them are quite clear, its people unwilling to look at the evidence at hand that turns things into a vague meaning. And I know it wasn't a barbaric remark. But it did appear to be an argument against Biblical accuracy and truthfulness. Which is why I made the response.
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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:35 pm
Well... Here's my two cents.
Does it make sense dating a woman who loves you one minute, then unleashes horrible fury upon you the next?
(God tells the Jews that they are his chosen people and he loves them/Then burns their city with fire rain)
Does it make to punish every child you have for something your first did?
(Adam and Eve eat the fruit, we are born with original sin)
Does it make sense to donate a kidney to yourself to save your daughter?
(God sent Jesus(His Son/A part of the Trinity that is One) down to Earth to die for our sins and come back up to heaven)
Does it make sense to tell someone that they can do either A or B, but if they don't do be you will make them suffer?
(We are free to follow or not follow God, but we suffer eternal damnation if we choose not to follow)
That, my friend, is God.
Now, Jesus on the other hand came and contradicted just about everything that the old testament taught us about God. It's a whole nother religion, with a whole other deity.
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:55 pm
Trey the Red Rebel Well... Here's my two cents.
Does it make sense dating a woman who loves you one minute, then unleashes horrible fury upon you the next?
(God tells the Jews that they are his chosen people and he loves them/Then burns their city with fire rain) Lets see if she cheats on you, turns her back on you, completely ignores you, and then when you give her every possibility to come back to you despite what she had done than yes it does. Which is what Israel did, turned their back on Him. "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God"-Hosea 1:10 Here is a promise given from God to redeem them (which was later brought by Jesus Christ.) Then read any number of the prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc) Trey the Red Rebel Does it make to punish every child you have for something your first did?
(Adam and Eve eat the fruit, we are born with original sin) This one is simply based on a common misconception that the original sin condemns others to hell. Original sin only implies that we now have the knowledge of what sin is, not a sin that is counted against you. Trey the Red Rebel Does it make sense to donate a kidney to yourself to save your daughter?
(God sent Jesus(His Son/A part of the Trinity that is One) down to Earth to die for our sins and come back up to heaven) Another misconception. Jesus is God, in the flesh. And even if he wasn't it isn't even close to the comparison you gave. Jesus went willingly, to be the final sacrifice for us.(To pay the price' You see if you put the example you gave into something more like in this situation "If I don't give up my kidney they will kill my daughter", then it makes perfect sense to use it. Because that was the situation that Jesus was in when He came to die, He paid the ransom with his own blood. It'd be like giving terrorists the money they requested to free the P.O.W.'s. Trey the Red Rebel Does it make sense to tell someone that they can do either A or B, but if they don't do be you will make them suffer?
(We are free to follow or not follow God, but we suffer eternal damnation if we choose not to follow) Well yeah...this one I don't even get. If you break the law you go to jail, sure your 'free'(as in you have the choice) to break the law, but it doesn't mean you should. If you do something your not supposed to, you will get in trouble. Or your free to stick your hand in fire, but that doesn't mean you won't get burned by it. No it's a common misconception of God. Trey the Red Rebel Now, Jesus on the other hand came and contradicted just about everything that the old testament taught us about God. It's a whole nother religion, with a whole other deity. No He fixed what they thought was right, and showed them it was wrong. He showed the difference between creed and tradition. While using examples and text from the Old Testament ( Covenant )
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:16 pm
"Now, Jesus on the other hand came and contradicted just about everything that the old testament taught us about God. It's a whole nother religion, with a whole other deity."
I really don't see the contradictions. God is forgiving when his children turned to him (Jesus healed and helped all who came to him in faith), he is angry when his children worshiped false idols and betrayed him (Jesus flipped over tables when he found that the temple had been tranformed into a market place), God is patient (Jesus was always calm, except of course for the above situation), the comparisons go on and on. I also would like to state that many Old Testament stories r4eflect the coming of Christ, David and Joshua (Same name as Jesus[ Jesus was a Roman name])(said like yeshua) being among them. Unfortinately I havn't the time to delv further into that. I hope that you will take me on my word.
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Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:56 am
i hope not.
logic is unimaginative and deadly dull; faith is not.
"We know the truth, not only by the reason, but also by the heart....
The heart has its reasons which reason knows not ."
Blaise Pascal
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:02 pm
beaulolais i hope not. logic is unimaginative and deadly dull; faith is not. "We know the truth, not only by the reason, but also by the heart.... The heart has its reasons which reason knows not ." Blaise Pascal I studied the christian bible for a year in my first year of college with a really nice christian guy named Brian. I tell you this so i can make this clain and not be called.... something not very nice. I found in my study that I will never be happy following something based on a book that has stories of why we should believe. Just because someone worded something nicely doesnt mean you should believe it. Just because religion gives you more bubbly feelings than "when you die, nothing happens" isnt a good enough reason for me to follow it. (i tried to word that nicely, sorry if it sounds like an attack, it really isnt, just what i found in my year of studying)
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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:37 pm
Kain1334 1. Lets see if she cheats on you, turns her back on you, completely ignores you, and then when you give her every possibility to come back to you despite what she had done than yes it does. Which is what Israel did, turned their back on Him. "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God"-Hosea 1:10 Here is a promise given from God to redeem them (which was later brought by Jesus Christ.) Then read any number of the prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc) 2. This one is simply based on a common misconception that the original sin condemns others to hell. Original sin only implies that we now have the knowledge of what sin is, not a sin that is counted against you. 3. Another misconception. Jesus is God, in the flesh. And even if he wasn't it isn't even close to the comparison you gave. Jesus went willingly, to be the final sacrifice for us.(To pay the price' You see if you put the example you gave into something more like in this situation "If I don't give up my kidney they will kill my daughter", then it makes perfect sense to use it. Because that was the situation that Jesus was in when He came to die, He paid the ransom with his own blood. It'd be like giving terrorists the money they requested to free the P.O.W.'s. 4. Well yeah...this one I don't even get. If you break the law you go to jail, sure your 'free'(as in you have the choice) to break the law, but it doesn't mean you should. If you do something your not supposed to, you will get in trouble. Or your free to stick your hand in fire, but that doesn't mean you won't get burned by it. 5. No it's a common misconception of God. 6. No He fixed what they thought was right, and showed them it was wrong. He showed the difference between creed and tradition. While using examples and text from the Old Testament ( Covenant )
1. But this girlfriend is considered to be 'imperfect' as a human. So, I suppose God is 'imperfect' and not 'all-loving' as well?
2. Wrong. Original sin states that we are born in sin, and even if we go through our entire lives without sinning (which I know is pretty much impossible, but hypothetically), we would still go to hell if we did not pray for forgiveness.
3. What you just said was, "If I don't donate this kidney, I will kill my daughter. Revise that and get back to me.
4. And yes, the law does restrict our free will to some extent, because without it, there would be know repercussions of murder etc. And the fire thing, that is a definite consequence, not judgment handed down by a third party.
5. No, yours may be the delusion. Consider that.
6. Jewish law clearly stated that you should stone a woman for adultery. Jesus comes and says, "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." Though I take this as, "He who has not committed adultery, cast the first stone,", it was meant to say that what they were doing was wrong. Therefore he contradicted a law that God gave them.
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Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:13 pm
beaulolais i hope not. logic is unimaginative and deadly dull; faith is not. "We know the truth, not only by the reason, but also by the heart.... The heart has its reasons which reason knows not ." Blaise Pascal I beg to differ, my 'unenlightened' friend, as so many seem to call it. It is YOUR opinion, what you just stated, and it would be quite appreciated if you admitted that. Now, I quite enjoy my logic. I make friends with it. I go out to tea with it. We have wonderful chats, my mind and I, and I'm having the time of my life. If your 'God', if he is true, by your standards, doesn't agree with this, my own standards, and he tells me when I die, "If you do not throw away this train of thought and conform to my wishes, you shall be thrown into Hell," I STILL wouldn't give up my logic. Quite on the contrary, I'd keep it close to me on my journey to the deepest depths. My logic and I, we'd ask Satan what his own logic is, if he wouldn't mind sharing with us. We'd have a friendly logic-debate, arguing over whose logic is best, and I would go on my merry way, not leaving my logic, of course.
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Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:29 am
SpinelSama beaulolais i hope not. logic is unimaginative and deadly dull; faith is not. "We know the truth, not only by the reason, but also by the heart.... The heart has its reasons which reason knows not ." Blaise Pascal I beg to differ, my 'unenlightened' friend, as so many seem to call it. It is YOUR opinion, what you just stated, and it would be quite appreciated if you admitted that. Now, I quite enjoy my logic. I make friends with it. I go out to tea with it. We have wonderful chats, my mind and I, and I'm having the time of my life. If your 'God', if he is true, by your standards, doesn't agree with this, my own standards, and he tells me when I die, "If you do not throw away this train of thought and conform to my wishes, you shall be thrown into Hell," I STILL wouldn't give up my logic. Quite on the contrary, I'd keep it close to me on my journey to the deepest depths. My logic and I, we'd ask Satan what his own logic is, if he wouldn't mind sharing with us. We'd have a friendly logic-debate, arguing over whose logic is best, and I would go on my merry way, not leaving my logic, of course. And I'd join you. That would be a very interesting conversation. biggrin
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:47 pm
"I beg to differ, my 'unenlightened' friend, as so many seem to call it. It is YOUR opinion, what you just stated, and it would be quite appreciated if you admitted that.
Now, I quite enjoy my logic.
I make friends with it.
I go out to tea with it.
We have wonderful chats, my mind and I, and I'm having the time of my life.
If your 'God', if he is true, by your standards, doesn't agree with this, my own standards, and he tells me when I die, "If you do not throw away this train of thought and conform to my wishes, you shall be thrown into Hell," I STILL wouldn't give up my logic.
Quite on the contrary, I'd keep it close to me on my journey to the deepest depths.
My logic and I, we'd ask Satan what his own logic is, if he wouldn't mind sharing with us.
We'd have a friendly logic-debate, arguing over whose logic is best, and I would go on my merry way, not leaving my logic, of course."
I see where your going with this but if you could go all the way to hell and yet still hold on to opinions that would have been proven false at that point (I'm imagining that your opinion is that God does not exist since this is a debate along those lines.) how could you still hold on to them. That would make you insanely ignorant(the word ignorant falling rather short in this case.) One who considers themselves intelegent (terribly sorry I mean you no personal insult) knows that they can only hold on to an opinion as long as there is proper holding to it. In all other cases you must simply consider it a possibility. Just as I consider it a possibility that we might have in fact evolved from apes and that some of the earlier stories in the Bible are there for their significance in meaning and not for precise acuracy in history. These are possibilities. The reason I have not abandond my faith is because I have seen, learned, and experienced far to much that pushes me toward the ideals I hold today. So much so that I no longer consider God a possibility but as a reality. Why is it that most athiests are unable to even consider that Christians put forth valid information and that God's existance is at least a possibility.
p.s. I advise you to examine your thoughts and tell me what they might end up rresulting in, because if there is one thing I have found it is that all sin (even in thought) has some kind of consequence.(. . .whooo that was a long one)
p.p.s. or p.s.s. (I forget which) I love the voice you used for that statement very dry and humorous.
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:53 pm
ah forgot to post this last bit. Logic is only good untill it is proven false or in doubt. That's why people have to be flexible in their opinions. also where do your standards come from, are they realy your own or are you simply borrowing them from others? This is a very important question, especially seeing as we learn pretty much everything from others and our opinions are usually derived in the same manner. So I ask you do you beleive what you believe because you have adequate poof to back it up or is it simply because someone you hold in high esteem holds that opinion?(realize I have no intention of insulting you I only want you to question these things.)
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:04 pm
Truith ah forgot to post this last bit. Logic is only good untill it is proven false or in doubt. That's why people have to be flexible in their opinions. also where do your standards come from, are they realy your own or are you simply borrowing them from others? This is a very important question, especially seeing as we learn pretty much everything from others and our opinions are usually derived in the same manner. So I ask you do you beleive what you believe because you have adequate poof to back it up or is it simply because someone you hold in high esteem holds that opinion?(realize I have no intention of insulting you I only want you to question these things.) We can ask the same of you, then. If you had been brought up without religion, would you have abandoned how you were raised and chose to be Christian? Because, the ratio of people brought up with religion who then become athiest or agnostic is far greater than the other way around. And also, you're basically saying that all logic would be thrown out the window if it was proven that all that Christianity says is true, was actually true?
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:28 pm
Most religions aren't entirely logical. Christianity is just the religion that works for me. I respect and have no problem with people who find another religion better suited to them, or no religion at all.
There are holes in the logic of Christianity, yes, but a good Christian can take the good morals and standards from it, and use Christianity as a basis to live well.
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 7:34 am
Associating logic into a religion? How can you really reason out something that only has vague evidence? How can you not, when you cannot really disprove it? It clashes way too much. It's like dividing a number by zero, or a mobius strip. It circles around. It repeats that process until we realize that it has become senseless.
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 7:55 am
I'd like to throw my 1 and a half cents into this mix of "Chirstianity".
We must remember that there are several different sects, such as Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian and so on and so forth. It's almost impossible to generalize Christianity, because by doing so, you WILL come across contradictions. You must look at things from one certain view point at a time. So if we're analyzing Christianity, then we need to look at a certain sect. So are you a baptist? Catholic? Presbyterian?
I apologize if this has already been cleared up or stated beforehand, all I read was the first 3 pages and part of this last page here.
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