"You're going to hell!" and other bad conversion techniques.

[Green_Fuu]

I recently saw this discussion in the ED and thought it was an interesting subject, it brings up pretty goods points.
I already have my opinion on it but I wanted to see yours:

Quote:

We've all seen them. Well, most of us probably have. The ones who stand there in the street attempting to convert you to another religion. And maybe you've walked straight by them, or maybe you've stayed and listened to them. I stayed and listened, and I noticed something.

All of their techniques were ones that would not work on anyone but people who already believed.

(Note: This topic is directly inspired by a Christian group, so it is likely any examples I put up will be Christian ones. Feel free to submit your own examples from any other religion if you wish.)

1.) YOU'LL GO TO HELL IF YOU DO NOT REPENT!
Normally, being told that you would be sent to an eternal torment would be a very good way to convert someone. However, they are jumping a step here. First you need to convince the person you are giving the warning to that hell actually exists.

Think about it. If I tell you a Dalek is going to kill you, would you believe me? No, because we are not in the world of Doctor Who. If, however, I manage to convince you that this Dalek exists, you are probably going to be more likely to believe me when I say `It's going to kill you!`

2.) But Jesus and God love you!
A far more positive version of the one above, but it suffers from the exact same problem. You are trying to convince people that God and Jesus exist. The `they love you` bit is the next step.

3.)Trying to Prove the Existance of God with Biblical quotes.
Again, the same problem. (noticing a pattern here?). You are trying to convince people that the Bible is the word of God. Quoting the Bible saying it is the word of God doesn't work because we have no reason to believe what it is saying. The focus is in the wrong place!

All of these examples have the same underlying problem. The people using these techniques aren't trying to think like the people they are trying to convince. They are using arguments they find convincing, not taking into account that the very basic assumptions the two sides make about the issue, God existing, God not existing (insert other deity or philosophy of choice here).

So what would be a good way to try to convert somebody? Well, the fact is, I don't think I can give you a general answer. People's beliefs can vary alot, and what is convincing to one person may not be convincing to another. You have to find out what a person thinks, and marshall your arguments accordingly, rather than trying, and failing, with the kind of techniques listed above.

Also people will respond better to you if you are polite about what you do. That means accepting that some people will not want to talk about issues such as this, particularly with someone they don't know that well. It means respecting the fact that they may actually have valid reasons for disagreeing with you, and not making yourself look like you are only trying to convert them because you have been threatened with hell yourself. (This, incidently, is why leaving those silly tracts disgused as tips on tables in resturants doesn't work either; it makes you look like a jerk, and people are less likely to listen to jerks.)

Of course, I may be falling into the exact same trap of overgeneralisation here myself. Maybe there are some people out there who these techniques work on. Anybody have any stories?

DISCUSS:
Other bad techniques I left out.
Good techniques to use.
Any individual stories of attempted conversions, successfull or unsuccessful, preacher or unbeliever.

 

[Kyramud]

Honestly, I've never had the opportunity to see someone proselytizing in the street before. I've had people knock on the door before handing out pamphlets, but not shouting at me in the street.

Anywho, I'll start with number three. I don't really have a problem with using the bible to prove the existence of God. W/O going into too much detail, there's a whole list proofs that the bible is a fairly accurate historical document. People who have spent a lot more time researching than I, have concluded that there are ample amounts of other documentation for instances that are also recorded in the bible. Jesus himself has been documented by Roman historians, the star over bethlehem was witnessed by more than just three 'wise men', etc.
Granted, there are just as many people who have spent longer researching it and concluded that the bible is a huge fallacy, built on ignorant superstition and myth, but I'm not going in to that debate.
So, for me, if there's so much that stacks up, and the Bible says something along the lines of "Hey, there's this God, and, he loves you enough that he killed himself so you can have a relationship, etc." then part of me thinks that maybe these people know what they're talking about. That, and, the book was collected over thousands of years of history without any significant changes in the theme from book one to book 66, coupled with various prophecies being fulfilled, and you've got a very 'convincing' platform to stake your argument on.

On to Num. 2:
If, based on my previous answer I am to be of the mindset that the bible is accurate in it's claims, then when the Bible talks about this Jesus guy and his father who happens to be the creator of the universe referred to simply as 'God', and they claim to love me (to the point where one of them died for me) then I see no reason to disbelieve it. After all, the first 39 books are all leading up to this Jesus character, and then there are four or so books dedicated to recording his life (and death) with no significant differences, followed by another twenty-five or so that were written by other members of the faith instructing us in how we are supposed to live and conduct ourselves in our faith.

Now for Number one:
This is the clincher. If you believe, as I do, that the Bible is accurate, that Jesus meant what he said, that there is a 'hereafter', and that we will be judged each according to their works, then you have no choice but to believe that there is a hell, and that it is the eternal destination of those not joint heirs in the kingdom of God.
Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"
Revelation 19:20 talks about the fiery lake: "But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."
So, yes, if you believe the bible, there is a hell, and it's not a place anyone should want to be.

But, the problem people run into is that, there are people that don't believe that hell actually exists. There are people that don't believe that anything about the christian religion is true, that any religion is true. There are people that are of other religions that believe theirs is the one true way, and the Bible is just a distraction from the path we are meant to walk. There are even some denominations that cling to the label of being "Christian" that don't believe in hell. After all, apart from some scratches of ink on a piece of paper recording the words of some guy that died as a criminal two thousand years ago, there isn't much concrete evidence to support the claim that there is a lake of fire that will hold the souls of all those people that choose to deny God's gift of eternal salvation. There is no way to know for sure if there's anything after death. There is only faith.
And, I'm okay with that. If I come to someone, and I share my belief, that person doesn't have to immediately believe what I say is truth. In fact, that very rarely ever happens. Does that mean I consider myself better than all those other people? No. Is there anything I can do, other than to share my beliefs and hope? No.

Now, these are my opinions. Mine may, and probably do, differ from yours, and I'm okay with that. I won't argue with you over whose is right and whose is wrong. You are free to believe what you want. It's in the bible, and it's in the Constitution. Please, since I'm respecting your right to believe what you want, respect mine to believe what I want.  

[WoodSorrelWitch]

Overall, yeah, I agree that these are bad techniques to use.

There are a few people that regularly come to my college and start shouting out to people. I stay and listen when I can but most often, I have to get to class. When I do get the chance to stay and listen, I often have no clue what the heck they are talking about. It seems that they aren't even talking about God anymore. And they are instigating fights with the crowd. I've never seen a good try at this technique.


1. Ironically, this is how my ex bf got my attention about God. It wasn't said exactly like that but I was afraid. I went to church with him for about a month before I came to Christ.

Something else that I've noticed is that people seem to think that hell will be a big party. And they won't listen to anything against it. And they will think that hell is "cool".
I've also encountered people who believe that God would never sent anyone to hell. And I've heard this once from someone on TV that hell was temporary. It was really sad to hear.

2. True, though most people I've run into claim that God could never love them. They seem to think that they've done something so bad that could cause God to not love them.

I think convincing others that God and Jesus exist is really hard. And often times, the person already has their mind made up and refuses to waiver on the subject. I believe it's hard because it depends on what you look at. I've encountered many bits of research that claim something was true only to find others that say something was not true.

3. I agree, I think that's kind of silly. In my experiences, if the person doesn't believe in God, they immediately reject His Word when people try to use it to make their case.  

[Green_Fuu]

Kyramud

Honestly, I've never had the opportunity to see someone proselytizing in the street before. I've had people knock on the door before handing out pamphlets, but not shouting at me in the street.

Anywho, I'll start with number three. I don't really have a problem with using the bible to prove the existence of God. W/O going into too much detail, there's a whole list proofs that the bible is a fairly accurate historical document. People who have spent a lot more time researching than I, have concluded that there are ample amounts of other documentation for instances that are also recorded in the bible. Jesus himself has been documented by Roman historians, the star over bethlehem was witnessed by more than just three 'wise men', etc.
Granted, there are just as many people who have spent longer researching it and concluded that the bible is a huge fallacy, built on ignorant superstition and myth, but I'm not going in to that debate.
So, for me, if there's so much that stacks up, and the Bible says something along the lines of "Hey, there's this God, and, he loves you enough that he killed himself so you can have a relationship, etc." then part of me thinks that maybe these people know what they're talking about. That, and, the book was collected over thousands of years of history without any significant changes in the theme from book one to book 66, coupled with various prophecies being fulfilled, and you've got a very 'convincing' platform to stake your argument on.


On to Num. 2:
If, based on my previous answer I am to be of the mindset that the bible is accurate in it's claims, then when the Bible talks about this Jesus guy and his father who happens to be the creator of the universe referred to simply as 'God', and they claim to love me (to the point where one of them died for me) then I see no reason to disbelieve it. After all, the first 39 books are all leading up to this Jesus character, and then there are four or so books dedicated to recording his life (and death) with no significant differences, followed by another twenty-five or so that were written by other members of the faith instructing us in how we are supposed to live and conduct ourselves in our faith.

Now for Number one:
This is the clincher. If you believe, as I do, that the Bible is accurate, that Jesus meant what he said, that there is a 'hereafter', and that we will be judged each according to their works, then you have no choice but to believe that there is a hell, and that it is the eternal destination of those not joint heirs in the kingdom of God.
Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"
Revelation 19:20 talks about the fiery lake: "But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."
So, yes, if you believe the bible, there is a hell, and it's not a place anyone should want to be.

Yes, but you are assuming that the people you are talking to will see your point. As stated specifically by this part, "for me, if there's so much that stacks up, and the Bible says something along the lines of 'Hey, there's this God, and, he loves you enough that he killed himself so you can have a relationship, etc.' then part of me thinks that maybe these people know what they're talking about."
I understand what you're trying to say, I feel the same way, hey if the Bible says it it's true! But this is more appropriately addressing the issue that not everyone is going to see your point, and most likely take your resources or proof as trash unless you provide a viable source they can touch and see.
And in consequence they will not believe in Hell either.
It would be like trying to convince YOU that buddah is real because the Buddhist bible says it or whatever they use, they'll come up with innumerous "facts" to try to convince you.
In no way am I comparing Christianity with Buddhism, it's just an illustration of what goes on inside their heads.
You are assuming the person is already Christian or has some inclination towards the Bible.

I believe everything you just said but that's because I already know about the Bible and God, I BELIEVE, but for someone who refuses to believe God is real and for that matter the Bible...wouldn't that be a useless "tactic"?

Kyramud

But, the problem people run into is that, there are people that don't believe that hell actually exists. There are people that don't believe that anything about the christian religion is true, that any religion is true. There are people that are of other religions that believe theirs is the one true way, and the Bible is just a distraction from the path we are meant to walk. There are even some denominations that cling to the label of being "Christian" that don't believe in hell. After all, apart from some scratches of ink on a piece of paper recording the words of some guy that died as a criminal two thousand years ago, there isn't much concrete evidence to support the claim that there is a lake of fire that will hold the souls of all those people that choose to deny God's gift of eternal salvation. There is no way to know for sure if there's anything after death. There is only faith.
And, I'm okay with that. If I come to someone, and I share my belief, that person doesn't have to immediately believe what I say is truth. In fact, that very rarely ever happens. Does that mean I consider myself better than all those other people? No. Is there anything I can do, other than to share my beliefs and hope? No.

Couldn't agree with you more.
You have half of the compliment in bold, which is what I believe is necessary for conversion, which I won't say now because I want somebody else to sat it ;}

 

[Green_Fuu]

PawzPrint

Overall, yeah, I agree that these are bad techniques to use.

There are a few people that regularly come to my college and start shouting out to people. I stay and listen when I can but most often, I have to get to class. When I do get the chance to stay and listen, I often have no clue what the heck they are talking about. It seems that they aren't even talking about God anymore. And they are instigating fights with the crowd. I've never seen a good try at this technique.


1. Ironically, this is how my ex bf got my attention about God. It wasn't said exactly like that but I was afraid. I went to church with him for about a month before I came to Christ.

Something else that I've noticed is that people seem to think that hell will be a big party. And they won't listen to anything against it. And they will think that hell is "cool".
I've also encountered people who believe that God would never sent anyone to hell. And I've heard this once from someone on TV that hell was temporary. It was really sad to hear.

2. True, though most people I've run into claim that God could never love them. They seem to think that they've done something so bad that could cause God to not love them.

I think convincing others that God and Jesus exist is really hard. And often times, the person already has their mind made up and refuses to waiver on the subject. I believe it's hard because it depends on what you look at. I've encountered many bits of research that claim something was true only to find others that say something was not true.

3. I agree, I think that's kind of silly. In my experiences, if the person doesn't believe in God, they immediately reject His Word when people try to use it to make their case.

Indeed, I've seen some people get in trouble for reading random scriptures (I think they were scriptures) in college but every time I passed by it kind of intimidated me because I couldn't understand anything he was saying and sometimes he would say a word I understood. I only guessed he was reading scriptures because he had Bible in his hands, but he was doing it in a pretty aggressive and not peaceful way at all, people were actually really annoyed and they had to call campus security, he replied back in a very hostile way too. I felt pretty bad for him because in his mind he was probably doing the right thing, except that...well nobody could understand him, he had a VERY heavy accent and he wasn't being prudent.
On the other hand there is a group of students who get together during lunch hour and they each discuss things about the Bible there has been many times I have wanted to join or just sit there and listen but I'm usually running late for class lol, but they don't impose anything on anyone and just discuss openly among themselves and sometimes they'll have a speaker, sometimes other students will join in out of curiosity.

Trying to convince people by force or by your own strategy never wins, I think there is a better way that never fails, which is how I think you and all of us got to accept Jesus in the first place, lol.

 

[WoodSorrelWitch]

Green_Fuu

Indeed, I've seen some people get in trouble for reading random scriptures (I think they were scriptures) in college but every time I passed by it kind of intimidated me because I couldn't understand anything he was saying and sometimes he would say a word I understood. I only guessed he was reading scriptures because he had Bible in his hands, but he was doing it in a pretty aggressive and not peaceful way at all, people were actually really annoyed and they had to call campus security, he replied back in a very hostile way too. I felt pretty bad for him because in his mind he was probably doing the right thing, except that...well nobody could understand him, he had a VERY heavy accent and he wasn't being prudent.
On the other hand there is a group of students who get together during lunch hour and they each discuss things about the Bible there has been many times I have wanted to join or just sit there and listen but I'm usually running late for class lol, but they don't impose anything on anyone and just discuss openly among themselves and sometimes they'll have a speaker, sometimes other students will join in out of curiosity.

Yeah, these guys don't really have any success other than irritating a lot of college students.
That group sounds interesting. I kind of wish that was done on my campus too.

Green_Fuu

Trying to convince people by force or by your own strategy never wins, I think there is a better way that never fails, which is how I think you and all of us got to accept Jesus in the first place, lol.

I think God has taught me that I can only plant the seed for unbelievers. The growing is taken care of by the Spirit.  

[Br1ttana]

My dad does open air preaching, and a lot of old friends he used to do it with he has parted ways with because that is the way that they open air preach now and it isn't exactly too biblical. : /  

[digital_kobraX]

i personally like to pick out the major flaws in evolution and the big bang theory. and get them asking questions about christian beliefs