Pre destination

[LyricalSoul93]

I was having this conversation with a friend of mine about the idea of pre destination, and it seems to be a very difficult concept for anyone to get their head around, I was wondering what you guys thought about it.

Okay, so if God is omniscient then he knows everything that is going to happen. If he already knows everything that is going to happen then that suggests that everything that is ever going to happen to any of us, every choice we're ever gonna make is already set, and we have no power over it.
So, if our life is preset than some of us are born to be followers and some are born to be lost. This means that God would create people to be lost and not follow him, which doesn't seem very loving or merciful to me. I've always been told that we choose God or not because he gave us the gift of free will. Besides which, if everyone's fate is already sealed, why would God preach evangelism?
Basically, by my friend's logic, God is either omniscient but doesn't love all of his people, or he is not the omniscient being that we know him to be. I know this isn't true but I can't find any real way to reconcile the two ideas. I was hoping that some of you guys might be able to shed some light.  

[Riku Elmwick]

Well yes the bible says that He knows all but that doesn't mean it's set in stone. And trust me it is all based on free will. God wants us to choose him. Though we might not all want to emit it we all were lost at a time and God wants all of us to find him.
Think of it this way. God knew Adam and Eve would be tempted by the fruit. He could have easly not put the tree in the garden but he wanted us to be different from his other creations and be able to choose. In other words he wants us to seek him and choose him.  

[emorhconom esor]

This is the debate between predestination and free will. I believe God predestines certain things in our life like someone talking to us about God so then we can be saved but it's our choice rather to accept Him or not. It's like that with all the things He does. He wants something to happen but it's our choice to do it.  

[CrimsonsDecayingRose]

Basically: We make our own decisions, but God knows what those choices are.  

[Riku Elmwick]

gothic_black_rose

This is the debate between predestination and free will. I believe God predestines certain things in our life like someone talking to us about God so then we can be saved but it's our choice rather to accept Him or not. It's like that with all the things He does. He wants something to happen but it's our choice to do it.

I agree with you.  

[SilverInk Awakening]

Riku Elmwick

gothic_black_rose

This is the debate between predestination and free will. I believe God predestines certain things in our life like someone talking to us about God so then we can be saved but it's our choice rather to accept Him or not. It's like that with all the things He does. He wants something to happen but it's our choice to do it.

I agree with you.

So do I.  

[LyricalSoul93]

CrimsonsDecayingRose

Basically: We make our own decisions, but God knows what those choices are.

God knows what those choices are as we make them, no one's arguing that he doesn't see and know us all.
But none of you have actually thought about the question. For someone to know something is going to happen, to be 100% sure that it's gonna happen, then the fact of that thing happening has to be already set in stone. Therefore, surely for God to know that we are going to do something, that act has to be already pre destined for us, we can't change it. See what I mean?  

[emorhconom esor]

LyricalSoul93

CrimsonsDecayingRose

Basically: We make our own decisions, but God knows what those choices are.

God knows what those choices are as we make them, no one's arguing that he doesn't see and know us all.
But none of you have actually thought about the question. For someone to know something is going to happen, to be 100% sure that it's gonna happen, then the fact of that thing happening has to be already set in stone. Therefore, surely for God to know that we are going to do something, that act has to be already pre destined for us, we can't change it. See what I mean?

Not really. He knows what we are going to do because he knows our hearts. After all the guy created us. He knows our inner most workings even if others don't. He gave us free will because He didn't want a bunch of robots around. He wanted a relationship. Also if He would never predestine someone to go to Hell because it's not in His nature to do that. I say these things because I'm not a Calvenist even though I share a birthday with the guy.  

[LyricalSoul93]

gothic_black_rose

LyricalSoul93

CrimsonsDecayingRose

Basically: We make our own decisions, but God knows what those choices are.

God knows what those choices are as we make them, no one's arguing that he doesn't see and know us all.
But none of you have actually thought about the question. For someone to know something is going to happen, to be 100% sure that it's gonna happen, then the fact of that thing happening has to be already set in stone. Therefore, surely for God to know that we are going to do something, that act has to be already pre destined for us, we can't change it. See what I mean?

Not really. He knows what we are going to do because he knows our hearts. After all the guy created us. He knows our inner most workings even if others don't. He gave us free will because He didn't want a bunch of robots around. He wanted a relationship. Also if He would never predestine someone to go to Hell because it's not in His nature to do that. I say these things because I'm not a Calvenist even though I share a birthday with the guy.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, I'm just trying to get my head around these discrepancies, because I know there must be answers. But I think you're missing the point.
God knowing what we'll do because he knows our hearts is not the same as us knowing how people are going to behave, or that something's going to happen. It's not a worldly concept. Like, 99.9999999% of the time, my younger brother Steven will chose a chocolate milkshake over a strawberry one. I know this because I know him. So if I ask him what kind of milkshake he wants and he says chocolate I might say "I knew you'd say that!". This is not what I mean. I thought he would chose chocolate but I didn't know. I hadn't seen the future or anything. God knows and has no doubt. For him to have no doubt, he has to see into the future, and for him to see into the future, surely that future has to be set?

Besides which, you say God knows our hearts and how we will react. God made us. He made our hearts and souls. So are you saying that he made some of us weaker than other, some able to see his truth and some not? I'm just trying to understand how there is no inherent responsibility on him for the choices we make.  

[emorhconom esor]

LyricalSoul93

gothic_black_rose

LyricalSoul93

CrimsonsDecayingRose

Basically: We make our own decisions, but God knows what those choices are.

God knows what those choices are as we make them, no one's arguing that he doesn't see and know us all.
But none of you have actually thought about the question. For someone to know something is going to happen, to be 100% sure that it's gonna happen, then the fact of that thing happening has to be already set in stone. Therefore, surely for God to know that we are going to do something, that act has to be already pre destined for us, we can't change it. See what I mean?

Not really. He knows what we are going to do because he knows our hearts. After all the guy created us. He knows our inner most workings even if others don't. He gave us free will because He didn't want a bunch of robots around. He wanted a relationship. Also if He would never predestine someone to go to Hell because it's not in His nature to do that. I say these things because I'm not a Calvenist even though I share a birthday with the guy.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, I'm just trying to get my head around these discrepancies, because I know there must be answers. But I think you're missing the point.
God knowing what we'll do because he knows our hearts is not the same as us knowing how people are going to behave, or that something's going to happen. It's not a worldly concept. Like, 99.9999999% of the time, my younger brother Steven will chose a chocolate milkshake over a strawberry one. I know this because I know him. So if I ask him what kind of milkshake he wants and he says chocolate I might say "I knew you'd say that!". This is not what I mean. I thought he would chose chocolate but I didn't know. I hadn't seen the future or anything. God knows and has no doubt. For him to have no doubt, he has to see into the future, and for him to see into the future, surely that future has to be set?

Besides which, you say God knows our hearts and how we will react. God made us. He made our hearts and souls. So are you saying that he made some of us weaker than other, some able to see his truth and some not? I'm just trying to understand how there is no inherent responsibility on him for the choices we make.

Whoa where did you pull that last part from? I can see where you are coming from in the first part but that last part I said nothing like that. Now you just confused the easily confuzed person and I don't remember how I going to respond. So I will have to get back to about it later.  

[LyricalSoul93]

gothic_black_rose

LyricalSoul93

gothic_black_rose

LyricalSoul93

CrimsonsDecayingRose

Basically: We make our own decisions, but God knows what those choices are.

God knows what those choices are as we make them, no one's arguing that he doesn't see and know us all.
But none of you have actually thought about the question. For someone to know something is going to happen, to be 100% sure that it's gonna happen, then the fact of that thing happening has to be already set in stone. Therefore, surely for God to know that we are going to do something, that act has to be already pre destined for us, we can't change it. See what I mean?

Not really. He knows what we are going to do because he knows our hearts. After all the guy created us. He knows our inner most workings even if others don't. He gave us free will because He didn't want a bunch of robots around. He wanted a relationship. Also if He would never predestine someone to go to Hell because it's not in His nature to do that. I say these things because I'm not a Calvenist even though I share a birthday with the guy.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, I'm just trying to get my head around these discrepancies, because I know there must be answers. But I think you're missing the point.
God knowing what we'll do because he knows our hearts is not the same as us knowing how people are going to behave, or that something's going to happen. It's not a worldly concept. Like, 99.9999999% of the time, my younger brother Steven will chose a chocolate milkshake over a strawberry one. I know this because I know him. So if I ask him what kind of milkshake he wants and he says chocolate I might say "I knew you'd say that!". This is not what I mean. I thought he would chose chocolate but I didn't know. I hadn't seen the future or anything. God knows and has no doubt. For him to have no doubt, he has to see into the future, and for him to see into the future, surely that future has to be set?

Besides which, you say God knows our hearts and how we will react. God made us. He made our hearts and souls. So are you saying that he made some of us weaker than other, some able to see his truth and some not? I'm just trying to understand how there is no inherent responsibility on him for the choices we make.

Whoa where did you pull that last part from? I can see where you are coming from in the first part but that last part I said nothing like that. Now you just confused the easily confuzed person and I don't remember how I going to respond. So I will have to get back to about it later.

Alright.. well, I just re read what I wrote and it still kinda made sense to me so just let me know what you want clarified when you come back =)  

[Servant Reborn]

I've been wondering this too. I was reading Exodus a few days ago and I read the part where God hardened the Pharaoh's heart. It seemed to me that the Pharaoh wanted to let Moses' people go, but after each plague, God would harden the Pharaoh's heart.

So, it sounds reasonable to me that God allows us to act accordingly, regardless of the circumstances...I think.

confused

But now that I reflect on this, I am not sure. I mean, what about homosexuals? Every homosexual I know has told me that he or she cannot simply "turn off" the homosexuality. I started to thinking, if homosexuality is a sin, why would God allow people to be born that way.

Aren't all babies born innocent and pure?

Then, I kept thinking, other than my attraction to female, how is my attraction different compared to homosexuals? I can't "turn it off" either. There's a person I am attracted to, and try as I might, I can not make myself not be attracted towards her.

But this only confounds me further. I don't think attraction, regardless or sex, can change. I mean, once you are attracted to someone, only you can change that, after you learn about the person and what have you.

This pretty much leaves me stumped. I'll continue my readings and hopefully learn something more.  

[Shadows-shine]

I don't believe in predestination. There are no scriptures to support it. I believe God knows the outcome of whatever we choose to do, but I don't think He predetermines what we are going to do, how we will do it, etc. Otherwise if that were the case, why would He give us agency, if He was just going to choose our fate, actions, etc. for us to begin with?

I do believe in what is called foreordinantion, which is totally different that predestination.  

[CrimsonsDecayingRose]

Shadows-shine

I don't believe in predestination. There are no scriptures to support it. I believe God knows the outcome of whatever we choose to do, but I don't think He predetermines what we are going to do, how we will do it, etc. Otherwise if that were the case, why would He give us agency, if He was just going to choose our fate, actions, etc. for us to begin with?

I do believe in what is called foreordinantion, which is totally different that predestination.

What's foreordinantion?  

[Shadows-shine]

CrimsonsDecayingRose

Shadows-shine

I don't believe in predestination. There are no scriptures to support it. I believe God knows the outcome of whatever we choose to do, but I don't think He predetermines what we are going to do, how we will do it, etc. Otherwise if that were the case, why would He give us agency, if He was just going to choose our fate, actions, etc. for us to begin with?

I do believe in what is called foreordinantion, which is totally different that predestination.

What's foreordinantion?

Since it's easier for me to quote a few sources on the doctrine, I will do so.


-From the LDS "True to the Faith" handbook-

Quote:

In the premortal spirit world, God appointed certain spirits to fulfill specific missions during their mortal lives. This is called foreordination.

Foreordination does not guarantee that individuals will receive certain callings or responsibilities. Such opportunities come in this life as a result of the righteous exercise of agency, just as foreordination came as a result of righteousness in the premortal existence.

Jesus Christ was foreordained to carry out the Atonement, becoming “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,” (Revelation 13:8; see also 1 Peter 1:19–21). The scriptures tell of others who were foreordained. The prophet Abraham learned about his foreordination when he received a vision in which he saw “many of the noble and great ones” among the spirits in the premortal spirit world. He said: “God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born” (Abraham 3:22–23). The Lord told Jeremiah, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). John the Baptist was foreordained to prepare the people for the Savior’s mortal ministry (see Isaiah 40:3; Luke 1:13–17; 1 Nephi 10:7–10).

The doctrine of foreordination applies to all members of the Church, not just to the Savior and His prophets. Before the creation of the earth, faithful women were given certain responsibilities and faithful men were foreordained to certain priesthood duties. Although you do not remember that time, you surely agreed to fulfill significant tasks in the service of your Father. As you prove yourself worthy, you will be given opportunities to fulfill the assignments you then received.

-From the LDS Glossary-

Quote:

Foreordination: Callings given by Heavenly Father to his children to come to earth at a specific time and place to help with his work in a particular way.