Can we get a definition please!?

[Medeus]

lol I've been thinking a lot lately about how exactly to Define what "Sin" is, and how it works, and how we can all come to a general agreement about the matter.
I see and hear (about) a lot of people running around judging other people, telling them things like, "Watching that movie was sinful", or "Going to the Bar is a sin, you're gonna go to hell if you don't stop!", blehh blehh blurghsfhjdfsashashaghfskj etc. Know what I mean?
There are just so many different things that count, apparently, as Sins but than some other things I think are oddly specific.....=/
I'm not saying that any of the above are NOT technically sinful, I just want to be able to say Why they are, and have scriptural evidence to back it up.

Also, I ALWAYS hear about how people think they, or others, are gonna "burn in hell", and I feel like....why is hell on fire all of a sudden? A.K.A; people think of Hell as some kind of glorified Tartarus (the deepest chamber of the underworld reserved for the worst criminals in Grecian mythology) [p.s. even the name 'Hell' comes from a Scandinavian Goddess], and Heaven as a type of Elysium (the sparkly place where all the nice people who pay their taxes go after death xD, also by Grecian Mythos). I just feel like that's not how it works.....
And that's relative because the thoughts in my head lead me to believe that there's very little difference between "Sin" (or at least it's origins), and 'Hell'.

SO! The long and short of it is I'd like to hear some of your thoughts about what Sin actually is, and of course scriptural references would be fantastically appropriate for the discussion in (and placement of) this thread. 3nodding

At least for a little bit, let's pretend that I've never even heard of Sin, or God, or know much of what's in the Bible
Aaaaannnnnnnnnnnddddddddd GO!

p.s. I hope this is the right subforum. @_@ if not, thy Mods canst always moveth it.  

[Kyramud]

Medeus

SO! The long and short of it is I'd like to hear some of your thoughts about what Sin actually is, and of course scriptural references would be fantastically appropriate for the discussion in (and placement of) this thread. 3nodding

I wanted to know about this to, so I went and asked my youth pastor, and he put it to me this way. In archery, at least way back when, targets were a little different than they are now. There was one red dot in the middle, and everything else was white. If you shot at the target, and hit the bullseye it was called 'mark'. If you missed the mark, it would be called sin. So, from this point of view, to sin is to miss the mark, the mark being God's will. Don't know that there's a biblical reference, or where he got it from, but I like it and that's how I've always thought of it.

As for hell being on fire, that's not all of a sudden. Check Revelations, and there's quite a bit of detail, usually along the lines of unquenchable, eternal fire.

Revelation 19:20, "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Rev. 20:10, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Rev. 20:14-15, "And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Rev. 21:8, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

-----EDIT-----
Went and looked up hell, and the word 'Gehenna' kept showing up. So I of course googled that.

In the synoptic gospels Jesus uses the word Gehenna 11 times to describe the opposite to life in the Kingdom (Mark 9:43-48 ). It is a place where both soul and body could be destroyed (Matthew 10:28 ) in "unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43).

Gehenna was an actual place outside of Jerusalem. "It was the place where to throw all the dead carcasses and filth of the city; and was frequently the place of executions. The sight was horrible, the air was polluted and to preserve it in any manner of purity, it was necessary to keep fires continually burning there. The Jew's extreme loathsomeness of the place, the filth and putrefaction, the corruption of the atmosphere, and the lurid fires blazing by day and night, made it one of the most appalling symbols with which a Jew was acquainted."

Overall, hell doesn't sound like a very nice place.  

[Medeus]

That is an excellent metaphor, and it runs very closely with the thoughts I've been having....lol I guess we can call that confirmation #1? xD
Thank you for that. smile

Like woah...Yeah that would be a terrible place. haha!!
Though I feel like Jesus was one who A) loved to exaggerate, and B) use many easy-to-grasp metaphors, which are generally more powerful, but not always so literal...Especially when it comes to the Spiritual Realm.

I dunno, I guess I've just always thought of it as simply being either With God (in the 'Afterlife') or Away from him. Which is different from an actual Location, which could be pointed out on a spiritual Map. To put it poetically, "Where ever God isn't is where/what Hell is". Make sense that way?
In the same way, Which is why I wonder that Heaven and Hell are here and now; where Heaven is with God, and Hell is in his absence.

But I also feel like that would Only pertain to what happens Immediately after death; maybe, when God comes to rebuild everything, he'll have a place set aside that actually is the Lake of Fire, which technically may not necessarily be where everybody who isn't with God goes.
Are these sentences making sense? lol  

[xxEverBluexx]

Clinging to the remnants of perfection
Like most do after they break it...

I don't know if you want any more replies, but the definition of sin I've read is "separation from God/anything that separates us from God". That's why it's a sin to have idols, be greedy or prideful, etc. You're putting something else above God.

Not knowing which directions the correct one
Do I discard or remake it?

 

[Medeus]

I would love more replies! heart
I've heard that one too, though isn't it technically impossible for ANYTHING to separate us from God?
Even devoted Christians are capable of sinning; which leads me to believe that it's more accurate to phrase it as such; "Anything that doesn't bring us Closer to God is sinful".

We're separate from God by nature. That was the curse of Adam and Eve, that we would be separated from our Lord and Maker. So if Things that Separate us from God are Sinful, well.....doesn't that make us all screwed?
But if Life is a Race, the only way to win is to move forward, and if we aren't moving forward, we're falling behind. Anything that distracts us, puts us on a different track, even keeps us from moving anywhere at all, means we're losing; not moving forward.

p.s. I don't think you're wrong. I just think there are two sides to the proverbial coin....

Once again, are my words making sense? Any rebuttle/counter-argument/other definitions?
KEEP 'EM COMING! blaugh  

[Rednal]

*Sips tea* Sin is the ultimate proof of God's love.  

[Shadows-shine]

Sinful is willful disobedience against God's will and commandments. A person sins when they know the difference between right and wrong, but choose to do the wrong.  

[Shadows-shine]

Rednal

*Sips tea* Sin is the ultimate proof of God's love.

Care to explain?  

[Rednal]

Christian belief is such that Salvation is a gift offered by God to people (humans) who, by nature, are imperfect and do not deserve to be in the presence of a perfect God. However, in spite of our absolute unworthiness, God still desires our presence and is willing to overlook and forgive our flaws. For example, it has been suggested that the Ten Commandments, rather than being literal rules, might actually be more of an indicator for what God wants and something to point out the standard to which we should aspire, but ultimately cannot achieve. However, the Lord our God is also a fair God, who demands payment for wrongdoing. Sin is intolerable, but He set forth a way to move past sin, namely the sacrifice of life. In the times of the Old Testament, animal sacrifices were permitted, much like in the beginning of Genesis (specifically, 3:21) where God covered the nakedness of Adam and Eve with the skins of animals, sacrificing life to cover shame (and inventing tailoring at the same time, perhaps?). With His own sacrifice in the form of Jesus, the payment was made for all of mankind, such that any who asked for it would be able to receive salvation.

And this, of course, is the relevant point. By all evidence, God wants us to be with Him, but He will not force us to. Now, doing so would actually be very easy. Trivial, you could say. If God wanted servants who would just sing His praises and stuff, He could make them. Actually, some sources suggest that He already has. For us humans, however, salvation is a gift that is offered to us, a gift which we are permitted to choose. God appears to be very big on free will for humans; that is why He will not force us to do what He wants. As an optional gift, then, one that we are free to reject, salvation is also a choice. "To be with God" or "to not be with God". You see, for us to have free will, and for there to be a choice, you need two options. A vote with only one person on the ballot isn't really a vote. Forcing salvation upon us would mean we have no chance to decide for ourselves, and without the choice, even our sinning would be meaningless. Blameless are those who cannot choose their actions. Because of God's love for us, He permits us to reject His gift, and to choose "Sin" instead of "No Sin". The very existence of sin is an absolutely critical component to free will and God's desire to be with us. He allows us to say "no" to Him, not because He has to, but because He wants to allow us that freedom. People often wonder what a world without sin would be like. I say that it would kind of suck, because there would be no way for our existence to have any meaning at all to us as individuals. For our choices to matter at all in the truest sense, we must have the free will to make those choices, or we bear no responsibility for those actions and there is no meaning for us in anything we do. And the greatest choice of all, so far as we are concerned, is to be with God or not.

He cares about us enough to give us the option of walking away from Him (i.e. choosing sin), though He could easily arrange it otherwise. Omnipotence is useful like that. God sacrificed Himself and paid for our sins, but that sacrifice would have been unnecessary if He had not decided to give us free will and the burden of choice and responsibility for our actions. In other words, our ability to sin is proof of our free will, and evidence of a God who loves us enough to allow us to go against Him when there is absolutely nothing stopping Him from forcing us to be as He wants us except His own decisions.

*Sips tea* Sin is the ultimate proof of God's love. Q.E.D.  

[Medeus]

That....
was an excellent way to put it.
Can't have Shadows without Light.

That's a good answer, and would be an excellent segue into getting somebody Saved I think. 3nodding  

[Rednal]

^^b

I gave a mini version of that when I got baptized. My entire congregation was like eek , too. They weren't really expecting an actual speech from somebody who didn't usually talk... *Enjoys surprising people like that*

But mostly, I demand that my religion make sense, and that's the answer to the question of "sin" that I came up with after thinking for awhile.  

[Medeus]

haha! Win.

A) I hate the word "religion"....sounds like a bunch of rules, and that's not okay with me. lol! razz
B) xD That's definitely a good description about the Function of Sin as it pertains to our salvation, but I'm sorry to say that it doesn't really exactly define WHAT sin really is. know what I mean?  

[rosadria]

Well, it's not that hard, really.

1 John 3:4 - Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Basically, sin is breaking God's law. Doing things He doesn't want you to do, or not doing things He wants you to do. It's effect is separation from the Father, which is eternal death in the lake of fire.  

[Medeus]

Aye this is true. Though didn't Paul say that it's "not by Works, but by grace you've been saved" [paraphrased? xD]
Then he has this whole list of things that CAN NOT separate us from the Love of God. Romans 8:38-39.
Which makes me wonder how much it's the actual Doing of things....
Even Heartfelt Witnessing can be made sinful if done in the wrong context. It very possibly can push people away if the time just isn't right. As a result, everybody ends up feeling discouraged, and the witnessed-to might get the wrong idea about what Christianity is all about.
Would this be an example of Lawlessness or Righteousness, and is it a Sin even though the intentions were pure?  

[Shadows-shine]

Rednal

Christian belief is such that Salvation is a gift offered by God to people (humans) who, by nature, are imperfect and do not deserve to be in the presence of a perfect God. However, in spite of our absolute unworthiness, God still desires our presence and is willing to overlook and forgive our flaws. For example, it has been suggested that the Ten Commandments, rather than being literal rules, might actually be more of an indicator for what God wants and something to point out the standard to which we should aspire, but ultimately cannot achieve. However, the Lord our God is also a fair God, who demands payment for wrongdoing. Sin is intolerable, but He set forth a way to move past sin, namely the sacrifice of life. In the times of the Old Testament, animal sacrifices were permitted, much like in the beginning of Genesis (specifically, 3:21) where God covered the nakedness of Adam and Eve with the skins of animals, sacrificing life to cover shame (and inventing tailoring at the same time, perhaps?). With His own sacrifice in the form of Jesus, the payment was made for all of mankind, such that any who asked for it would be able to receive salvation.

And this, of course, is the relevant point. By all evidence, God wants us to be with Him, but He will not force us to. Now, doing so would actually be very easy. Trivial, you could say. If God wanted servants who would just sing His praises and stuff, He could make them. Actually, some sources suggest that He already has. For us humans, however, salvation is a gift that is offered to us, a gift which we are permitted to choose. God appears to be very big on free will for humans; that is why He will not force us to do what He wants. As an optional gift, then, one that we are free to reject, salvation is also a choice. "To be with God" or "to not be with God". You see, for us to have free will, and for there to be a choice, you need two options. A vote with only one person on the ballot isn't really a vote. Forcing salvation upon us would mean we have no chance to decide for ourselves, and without the choice, even our sinning would be meaningless. Blameless are those who cannot choose their actions. Because of God's love for us, He permits us to reject His gift, and to choose "Sin" instead of "No Sin". The very existence of sin is an absolutely critical component to free will and God's desire to be with us. He allows us to say "no" to Him, not because He has to, but because He wants to allow us that freedom. People often wonder what a world without sin would be like. I say that it would kind of suck, because there would be no way for our existence to have any meaning at all to us as individuals. For our choices to matter at all in the truest sense, we must have the free will to make those choices, or we bear no responsibility for those actions and there is no meaning for us in anything we do. And the greatest choice of all, so far as we are concerned, is to be with God or not.

He cares about us enough to give us the option of walking away from Him (i.e. choosing sin), though He could easily arrange it otherwise. Omnipotence is useful like that. God sacrificed Himself and paid for our sins, but that sacrifice would have been unnecessary if He had not decided to give us free will and the burden of choice and responsibility for our actions. In other words, our ability to sin is proof of our free will, and evidence of a God who loves us enough to allow us to go against Him when there is absolutely nothing stopping Him from forcing us to be as He wants us except His own decisions.

*Sips tea* Sin is the ultimate proof of God's love. Q.E.D.

. The Atonement of Christ and Christ Himself are the ultimate proof that God loves us. True, we cannot have light without dark, love without hate, right without wrong, etc. There has to be opposition in all things, but that is only to help us learn. We are all given a choice in life, "choose ye this day whom ye will serve..." Our ability to choose is the proof of free will, not our sinning.