The nature of evil

[Dilettante]

Evil is a slippery concept. When's the last time you heard it used seriously? Did you mock the person using it? For me, it was George W. Bush, and yes, he was mercilessly mocked. Which is not altogether a bad thing, but still: evil is a tough word to use in today's society.

Part of the reason we have an aversion to the word is because it represents extremism, and that's a major no-no in a society as cosmopolitan as ours. By saying something is evil, you're categorically ruling out some sort of accomodation, any kind of compromise. And in a society with a dozen faiths and philosophies, that kind of unyieldingness leads to tears and blood.

The word 'evil' is also highly offensive: telling someone you think they're evil is pretty much equivalent to telling them to 'go to Hell' and just as likely to be well-received in polite debate. It's no wonder you rarely hear polite people say it anymore.

I wonder how many people believe in it, either.

I'm a liberal, and I'm religious, which makes me an endangered species these days. The two are quite compatable most of the time, but there are a few areas where I need to do a lot of thinking. One of them is evil. I'm very optimistic about human nature; I think human beings can become perfect, and that we have the potential to solve all of humanity's problems as technology, education and wealth continue to grow at record paces. I'm also a little worried about society, however. All too often these days it seems we neglect our poor, our single mothers, our handicapped and gays; all too often we're willing to let someone else suffer so we can enjoy our standard of living. And all too often we seem to believe that evil is a thing that died out with the abacus.

Virtually all of us, if presented with a grinning, bloody man about to rape a child, would happily skewer him on the spot. We'd all like to say we'd stand up to a terrorist if we saw one. But how often do you get into that situation? Real life is rarely so black and white, and evil is often hard to recognize.

Most people, I think, would agree that Hitler was evil. Many would agree that Stalin was evil as well, although there are sympathizers for both men. From there it gets murky. Was Mussolini evil? Atilla the Hun? Caligula? Pol Pot? Osama Bin Laden? Saddam Hussein? George III? George W. Bush? As you go down the list, more and more people will disagree with the label - perhaps for good reasons. It's hard to judge someone's morality; we're not them, we're not in their position. Was it their fault, or were they raised that way? Did they avoid further bloodshed by being cruel? Were they insane? Does that matter? It's hard to say for sure.

Looking at the list leads me to another, troubling conclusion. All the figures I listed off are famous, powerful men. Sure, there's the occasional serial killer (Lizzie Borden springs to mind), but if we add up all the serial killers and all the dictators in the world, we're talking about such a tiny fraction of the population that it might as well not exist. Does that mean evil is irrelevant?

The late pope John Paul II, in one of his last encyclicals, castigated western Catholics for being 'cafeteria Christians', simply picking the parts of Christianity they liked and leaving the rest behind. He decried this as part of the moral relativism that was taking over western culture: the idea that other beliefs or actions we ourselves would regard as immoral can be justified as part of someone else's beliefs. There's some good in this: how else could gays and lesbians become accepted if we didn't accept that 'our' view was the only one? Would we receive immigrants at all if we forced them to abide by our views? The founders of our countries would probably spin in their graves at how our views today have changed from theirs in only a few centuries (if that). However, in other ways it can be a bad thing. Is female circumcision ever justified? Ethnic cleansing? The United Nations says no. If you can accept that another country can be doing evil, what about another person? Where do you draw the line?

If I believe that some things are good - charity, compassion, education, fairness, tolerance and more - then I have to believe that there are opposites, too: greed, selfishness, ignorance, injustice, extremism and more. In a way, by recognizing those things as evils, I'm helping to strengthen my own morals. Without evil, good has no meaning.

I'd be interested in what other people have to say about evil.  

[Cornelius loh Quatious]

It is my personal belief that there is no such thing as evil, and that it is simply a label that people use to describe things they don't like or have a strong aversion to. I suppose it also plays into the moral relativism of the entire situation, as there are things that I'm sure 99.9+% of the population would agree to as being "evil" and other things that are more ambiguous.

But the question of motivation comes to mind. If someone goes in and murders a room full of people, and thoroughly enjoys it, would it be safe to say that the person has some sort of severe psychosis or chemical imbalance? What if they did not enjoy it, but felt compelled to do it? Can they be held accountable for their actions?

People like Hitler and Stalin and both are often made examples of being "evil," but what do we know of their intentions? Hitler could have very well believed that he was doing mankind a service, and working towards the greater good. Many other militant religious extremist groups feel this way. Does this mean that he's accountable for his actions? Or that he was simply disturbed or ignorant? People often remark that Stalin did it for his own gain, for power and nothing else. Does this make him evil? Or deranged?

In the end, is anybody really accountable for their actions then? That nobody can be blamed for anything that they do, because environmental factors and genetic misfortune conspired to arrange the exact circumstances for the wrong-doing to occur? Of course they're still accountable. But I think "evil" isn't a term that we should use lightly, if at all. Then again, maybe we are just fooling ourselves into thinking that evil doesn't exist.

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world that he didn't exist."

I'm afraid that I don't have any answers, just questions. I don't compare things to evil and good any longer, I just react to things in what I judge at the time to be the most logical and appropriate way. Whether this is right or wrong I have yet to determine.  

[NickCpointless]

im quite the opposite i think humanity is a flawed creation were one of the most advanced species on the planet and what do we do.......................... for one we destroy the planet itself we drain it of reasorces and then leave nothing but a barren wasteland.
we kill, ok animals kill but not on the level we have and animals are now disseparing from the world because we want their skin or there fat or what ever.
humanity has tried to end war we stated at the end of the second world war we would never have anouther war as bad as that again but we are slowly crawling back to it.
im not going to label all of humanitys flaws as we all know them but we seem to be masters at self destruction our greed and lust and hate we try to control but most humans seem to be owned by it  

[Malekhi]

NickCpointless

im quite the opposite i think humanity is a flawed creation were one of the most advanced species on the planet and what do we do.......................... for one we destroy the planet itself we drain it of reasorces and then leave nothing but a barren wasteland.
we kill, ok animals kill but not on the level we have and animals are now disseparing from the world because we want their skin or there fat or what ever.
humanity has tried to end war we stated at the end of the second world war we would never have anouther war as bad as that again but we are slowly crawling back to it.
im not going to label all of humanitys flaws as we all know them but we seem to be masters at self destruction our greed and lust and hate we try to control but most humans seem to be owned by it

i think that this can be narrowed down to something a little less contravercial. not all humans support the way the government runs, and i think that may be what you are ellduing to here. the way i see it, power is like a drug. the more one has it, the more one wants it, and the more one gets, the less moral one becomes. and this is not neccecarily just political power, it can be on a great many levels, which i think is why you will find the mistreatment of our planet just as strong on many levels.

by taking a piece of dboyzero's opppinion into concideration, we can see that power does appear to be a controlling factor in the way eveil is depicted.  

[Ayniu]

I consider myself a curious person who thinks way too much, so in all honesty I'm certain of very few things. Confident with, maybe, but almost never sure of (I am, however, sure to myself that God exists, but let's not touch that here.)
I do think that people can be pure evil, and what I think evil means is...to be frank, 100% bad, wrong, imoral, e.t.c.
'Course this is where it gets touchy. You might say evil is an opinion...but is it, or does anyone really know?

What I think, is that evil is something that people can live "up" to very well, but something that will never fully be understood, because we're human and there are things in this world that aren't meant to be understood. I've always been curious as to what provokes evil within a person...what triggers that evil...  

[bloodlust_angelkel]

I do believe there are evil people in existence and I have encounted many but those are just humans a person can't be capable of true evil because everyone has a heart and feels sympathy. However they can cause destruction and chaos to people's lives without being evil necessarily. So yeah it's a really weird subject to talk about.  

[Hiitachin Kaoru]

There's also the issue of followers of those people we consider "evil". Take Hitler for example. He is someone who is considered by most people to be evil. What about all his followers? Can they be considered evil as well? Millions of people died in the Holocaust and Hitler sure didn't kill them all on his own. So are all his followers evil as well? They had the choice to not join him right...?
And I'm not talking just about Hitler. Stalin, Saddam Hussein, whoever...  

[Dilettante]

kithlyn

There's also the issue of followers of those people we consider "evil". Take Hitler for example. He is someone who is considered by most people to be evil. What about all his followers? Can they be considered evil as well? Millions of people died in the Holocaust and Hitler sure didn't kill them all on his own. So are all his followers evil as well? They had the choice to not join him right...?
And I'm not talking just about Hitler. Stalin, Saddam Hussein, whoever...

That's an interesting thought, kithyln. I'm not sure where the answer lies, but it brings to mind a famous psychology experiment of the 1940s.

After the war when the truth of the holocaust was coming to light to the public, there was a visceral reaction where people wondered how so many people could have become so evil - or were the evil?

An American psychologist decided to do an interesting test to find out. Note, by the way, that this was before ethics codes in psychology - his experiment would not be allowed today. Please do not try to repeat it.

He asked for 2 volunteers at a time to take part in a 'learning' experiment. Little did the volunteers know, but one of the 'volunteers' was really a confederate - that is, someone working for the psychologist who was paid to act like a volunteer.

The real volunteer was randomly assigned to be the teacher's aid, while the other volunteer was the student. The 'student' was going to memorize certain phrases by using electroshock therapy, while the real volunteer stayed in the next room, using the electroshock machine to give shocks of increasing power whenever the 'student' made a mistake. The dial went all the way up to an 'XX' rating in bright red, obviously dangerous.

The 'student' began by announcing his discomfort with the experiment, and protested that he had a heart condition, but the psychologist ordered the experiment to start. As the experiment progressed, the student made more mistakes, and the psychologist would order the volunteer to turn up the shocks.

After a while, the student would begin screaming and pleading for the experiment to stop, refusing to answer questions. The psychologist ordered more shocks in response. After this point, the student had a 'heart attack' and nothing else was heard. The psychologist continued to order more shocks.

The experiment was very disturbing. A large number of volunteers - my memory is failing, but a majority, I believe - continued to give shocks until the very end, even though many of them protested the treatment the student received. These were volunteers who were getting paid a few dollars for their part in the experiment, and the psychologist had no authority over them - and yet they obeyed his orders to do harm to another person.

Really makes you wonder about humanity, that we're so eager to let someone else accept responsibility for our own actions.  

[Dilettante]

Shadeshock

I consider myself a curious person who thinks way too much, so in all honesty I'm certain of very few things. Confident with, maybe, but almost never sure of (I am, however, sure to myself that God exists, but let's not touch that here.)
I do think that people can be pure evil, and what I think evil means is...to be frank, 100% bad, wrong, imoral, e.t.c.

We sound very similar. I had a similar thought for years...but then I started wondering. Is an evil person inherently incapable of doing good? What about doing good for an evil end? It would seem like the most evil people would be able to shroud themselves in a facade of decency, the way Paul Bernardo and Karla Holmoka did here in Canada. (Whether the two of them are evil is another debate, but it's certainly true that they were acting like monsters while appearing to be pillars of the community)

Quote:

What I think, is that evil is something that people can live "up" to very well, but something that will never fully be understood, because we're human and there are things in this world that aren't meant to be understood. I've always been curious as to what provokes evil within a person...what triggers that evil...

That's an interesting thought that I wish I had an intelligent response to. biggrin  

[Dilettante]

Malekhi

by taking a piece of dboyzero's opppinion into concideration, we can see that power does appear to be a controlling factor in the way eveil is depicted.

If I can wax religious for a moment without being deemed fanatical, perhaps this is why the Bible tells us to let God judge, rather than being judges ourselves.

To me, it makes sense that a person who would abuse power to evil ends is evil, even if he or she never has the power to do so. But there's no way for me to know whether someone would do so in a situation - for the same reason that we can't arrest someone for fantasizing about rape or torture; we can't know if they would actually do it if they had the chance.

But even this line of reasoning can be disturbing: I remember reading a poster about women's rights earlier this year. It mentioned a number of statistics - and one of them was a poll which asked college-aged men, anonymously, if they would rape a woman if they were 100% certain they would be free from consequences - nobody would ever find out. 75% of the respondents said yes.  

[DarthJudge]

Personally I think it is GREED that is the root of all evil. A perfect example of my idea is Judas. Judas betrayed Jesus, why? For 30 fricken' silver coins. But me, I don't focus on the evil ones all I know is that God will definately put matters into his own hands and those who are evil will only suffer in the end. I choose to walk on the path of good and stay on it. If someone else is evil because of some phsycological problem, trauma, jealousy (like Hitler), PURE hate, confusion (Anakin lol), hey, I'm sorry for you and I will only do my best to try to convert you to good. If all does not work out in the end, only you will pay the price for your sins and crimes for eternity (i'm talking to the evil ones in general by the way) I hope my point is clear and at least worth your time after all I'm still a young teen, but I DO know I have a certain acceptable degree of spiritual awareness and I have enough experience to definately know what is right and what is evil. Thank you.  

[Koravin]

I think one can do something against the common good. One can do bad things, but one cannot be evil. Too black and white. There are many reasons, and distortion tends to have a hand in many 'evil' acts. I do not believe in good and evil, just good and bad. I can't really explain right now, I'm lamefaced.  

[User_2961583]

Evil is a label that is put on those who do things ordinary people are taught not to do. There is no such thing as Evil. It's simply different beliefs and different ideals. I'm not saying it's good or bad, because frankly, I've sort of given up on labeling something Good or Bad.  

[Knife In Yer Guts]

What is evil?If an "evil" person follows what you belive is tht all it takes to make him "good"  

[Claire-Aurore]

First of all, NickCPointless? Your signature is too hilarious to go along with your post blaugh (no offense of course)

As for evil:
It all has to go back to why we have such labels as "evil" or "good". What are we trying to accomplish that isn't the way it is? What facilitates that goal? What hampers that goal?
When you have the answers to those questions then you will know what "good" and "evil" are.

What I have come to believe is that what we are trying to accomplish, or at least, what I am trying to accomplish is peaceful and happy living for everyone equally. And hopefully we can either live forever, as long as possible, or just be ok with the idea of death. To me then, what is evil is whatever leads away from us being able to live peacefully and joyfully together. On an individual level, a person living only for themself or spending their energies on making sure they are being taken care of before making sure the people around them are being taken care of, is evil. To put it simply, being selfish is evil.

This actually agrees with the biblical idea that "the love of money is the root of all evil" if we think of money as the way to take care of yourself. Why do we spend most of our days, and therefore, our life, working to get money? Most of us can't say it's because we love our job or find some fufillment in doing a good job or that what we are doing is necessary for people's existance and/or happy living (some can and that is a wonderful thing but then also some can't say that they are at the job for that reason). Most people are working at their job because the job repays them with money and money allows them to either get what they want or get what they need, id est most people work at their jobs because they are selfish.

Before I go on, I don't want to sound as if I am not including myself in this analysis. I have been saying "they" as if I'm not included but I most definately am. My job is pointless, as I am realising more and more, and I can't stand it but I keep at it because I need to have money to live.
And this brings up the major rebuttle to my argument: if we stop making sure we are being taken care of then who is going to take care of me? I'll end up on the street, hungry, cold, and soon dead. But if everyone was taking care of eachother there wouldn't be the need to fear that situation. The problem is that most people don't share this idea and so wouldn't support their neighbor. In fact, it's looked down upon with huge distaste: families don't even like to support their own, citing that people need to learn how to take care of themselves.

This needs a disclaimer, I can tell. I don't mean to imply that people shouldn't be educated or taught civilized ways of living and that such and fuss. I just mean that this idea of independance isn't a necessity like we have made it out to be. Neither need it be this virtue that we consider it. Living independantly is a cultural idea, many ancient societies didn't have children who "leave the nest" but rather stayed as a close-knit community.
This idea also corresponds with Christianity. Christ said that one of the two most important commandments was to love your neighbor as you love yourself.

I don't know other religions that well, a problem I'd like to rectify, so I can't say how they do at proclaiming this idea but I think that if we were to really dig into what the original founders said, they would agree on the main idea.

Anyway, this pretty much sums up my ideas on evil. Feel free to chew me out about anything or ask questions or point out fallacies, paradoxes, contradictions, and/or anything else that screws up my argument 3nodding